Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 November 8

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November 8

Mortgages

With all the shake up that is going on in the U.S. housing market relating to mortgages, does this have any effect on people who currently have mortgages and are making payments on them? Dismas|^(talk) 00:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of information in 2007 Subprime mortgage financial crisis which I won't rehash here, but the quick answer to your question is "Yes." In fact, some people with existing mortgages are the ones being most directly affected, as increases in their mortgage rates have made their payments unmanageable, leading to foreclosure. Personally, I have mortgage that is fixed rate, and barring an unexpected termination of employment, I should not be directly affected by this situation. I will be indirectly affected as this continues to play out and affects the stock market, interest rates, taxes, et cetera. --LarryMac | Talk 18:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Victor Hugo and Anthelme Brillat-Savarin

I made a note in my files years ago that Hugo, in his poem Floréal, made some reference to Brillat-Savarin. I have searched extensively on the web, but cannot track the poem down. Can anyone help me? -- JackofOz 00:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You can find "Floréal" here[1][2]. The section "Genio libri" refers to Brillat-Savarin by name (third stanza from the very end of linked pages #2 and #3). Wareh 01:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Wareh. What is the reference about? I don't need a literal translation, just the general gist. -- JackofOz 01:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a winking poem addressed to Hugo's own poetic genius, saying to mix the pagan & sensual liberally in with the Christian. Towards the end, Hugo says, "Do what you want, provided that..." The provisions that follow describe sensual Paris life anchored by poetic authenticity: that Venus has enough foam to cover her bare feet, that your breath kisses Psyche, that the real azure of the clear waters trembles in your poems, that the society goddesses with whom you sup hold on to a glimmer of heaven, and (here's your reference) that "Grimod la Reynière signals to Brillat-Savarin a whiff of watercress mixed with your serene hymn." That's the rough idea, anyway. Wareh 03:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup, mon ami. -- JackofOz 06:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Significance

What are the significance of Voltaire, Rousseau and Montesquieu? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.76 (talk) 00:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Check out the Age of Enlightenment. Rockin'! --24.147.86.187 01:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Christmas in the Commonwealth

I just finished watching the "Christmas Crackers" episode of Are You Being Served?. The episode was interesting as I'm American and don't know many of the customs around holidays in the UK. I was aware of Christmas crackers before seeing them in the episode but the display of colorful, crown-like paper hats threw me. I tried looking for an article about the custom but paper hat redirects to prat for some reason (as a corollary to my main question, if someone wants to tell me why that redirect is in place, I'd appreciate it). So where does the paper hat custom come from and how often is it seen today? Dismas|^(talk) 01:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, in Canada, at least among the families of British/Irish descent that I have celebrated Christmas with, it is seen very often. In my family, we get those crackers on Easter and Thanksgiving too - so, on any holiday where we sit at the fancy table with the good dishes! Perhaps the origin relates to the contrast of wearing ridiculous paper hats when you are otherwise supposed to be at your fanciest (and not everyone wears them happily - my father always refuses to put his on). And I don't know about the rest of the Commonwealth, but ours always also come with a little toy, and a piece of paper with a lame joke (actually two since there is an equally lame one in French on the opposite side). Adam Bishop 01:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.48 (talk)

Paper hat is rhyming slang for "prat". That doesn't mean it's a good itea for it to redirect to prat, though. - Nunh-huh 06:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've redirected it to Christmas Cracker. Exxolon 02:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Christmas crackers in the UK have contained cheap colourful tissue paper hats for many years, usually wrapped up with a slip of paper containing a really bad joke. Crackers also usually contain a small toy, the quality of which varies depending on the price and quality of the crackers in question. The idea is to pull the crackers and then everyone wears a hat as part of the ceremony. I don't know where the custom came from but in the UK it is incredibly common, every cracker I have ever seen contains a paper hat and most households that practice Christmas probably have crackers as they are one of the staples of Christmas, along with turkey and the Queen's Speech.GaryReggae 09:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Same custom for our family in Australia. Hat, little toy, old joke.Polypipe Wrangler 21:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

the north light

What "north light" means in Art terminology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.53.19.223 (talk) 02:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In the Northern Hemisphere, the sun rises in the east, moves into the southern sky, and sets in the west. Therefore if a room is on the north side of a building, the sun won't ever shine directly into the window. Rather, in the daytime the room will be lit by the diffuse light of the sky — north light. This is said to be a good light for doing artwork by. (In the Southern Hemisphere, it'd be south light that would be like that.) In this 1950s photo of a Toronto subway train running south from Rosedale to Bloor station, the building nearest the track on the east (left) side is an artists' studio; note the large windows on the north wall.

Of course, when I say "east" and "west" and "won't ever" above, that's a simplification. The room may not face exactly north, and for half the year the sun rises somewhat north of east and sets somewhat north of west. So the sun may shine into the room some of the time. But if you want north light, you just won't use the room during those parts of the day.

--Anonymous, 04:50 UTC, November 8, 2007.

I believe that, to an artist, "north light" is light without any shadows, diffuse, rather than direct, as Anonymous has said, with the result that nothing on the artist's working surface is distorted by light's shadow. Bielle 07:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In architectural terms, a "North Light" commonly refers to a pitched roof with glazing that faces North. This was a very commonly used feature for industrial buildings where light from windows in the side walls cannot penetrate the building. It faces North to reduce glare from direct sunlight while still allowing plenty of natural light in. GaryReggae 09:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Uganda

What are the causes of political instability Uganda?Cajey 07:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Politics of Uganda should give you a start. Dismas|^(talk) 13:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Cajey, the page I think you really need to look at is that on the Lords Resistance Army. In addition to that there are concerns over tribalism and how it impacts on the democratic process, as well as the usual problems with institutionalised corruption. Having said that, the presidency of Yoweri Museveni has brought stability to much of the country, after the turbulent years that went before, though there have been some fears recently about evolving dictatorship. I will be visiting Uganda in December, so have spent some time trying to understand the complexity of both its history and its politics. If you have any more specific questions I will do my best to help. Clio the Muse 03:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

And there was me hoping someone would mention Ugandan Relations (nudge nudge wink wink). 86.21.74.40 05:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I would have done but my boyfriend and I were too busy upstairs discussing Uganda! Clio the Muse 00:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Question about GPL

Imagine that a company gets a GPL-licensed program for exclusive internal use (they don't sell or distribute it outside of the company), and then makes modifications to it (also ONLY for internal use). However, "internal" use covers many employees working with that software in the company. They ONLY get access to work with the software in the capacity of employees, never as clients/customers.

The question is, is the company required to provide the modified source code to its employees under the conditions outlined above, per terms of the GPL?

Example: A company downloads Linux and makes its own distro for internal use only (thus not being obliged to release source code to the world as a whole). Employees of that company then use the distro to produce some other work which the company sells (and employees are paid to do so), but the company never distributes the distro itself outside of the company. The owner of the company has physical access to the modified source code of the distro, but most other employees only get access to the binaries. While the employees are using the distro, they do so as employees and not as customers. Under the terms of the GPL, is the distro considered to be "distributed" to the employees or not, and as such, when the company provides binaries for its employees to internally work with, is it required to also provide the source code to its employees?

Of course there's no guarantee that the modified binaries won't leak to the world, specifically because many employees in the company have access to the software. But any such distribution outside of the company would not be authorized by the company, and would constitute copyright infringement. 24.83.195.130 07:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

We are not permitted to give legal advice. A real company should ask their real lawyer. That said, your hypothetical company is strict compliance with the letter of the GPL, but they are not in strict compliance with the spirit of the GPL. This puts them at risk of getting a bad reputation in the Open Source community if this practice ever becomes a public issue. After you get a bad reputation in this regard, any other use you make of GPL software will come under increased scrutiny and you will no longer get the benefit of the doubt if you violate the letter of the GPL in any way. Also, you become a less attractive place to work for some members of the software community. Companies in this situation include Coverity and Tivo. -Arch dude 11:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this falls under the latter part of this clause:

You may make, run and propagate covered works that you do not convey, without conditions so long as your license otherwise remains in force. You may convey covered works to others for the sole purpose of having them make modifications exclusively for you, or provide you with facilities for running those works, provided that you comply with the terms of this License in conveying all material for which you do not control copyright. Those thus making or running the covered works for you must do so exclusively on your behalf, under your direction and control, on terms that prohibit them from making any copies of your copyrighted material outside their relationship with you.

I might be wrong on this but I interpret that paragraph as saying, "You can make proprietary modifications as long as they are only used by those whom are working exclusively for you, i.e. you can't distribute them outside of your company." I'm not very well acquainted with the GPL though so perhaps I am interpreting this incorrectly. --24.147.86.187 14:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Chinese and Japanese Martial Arts

What's the fundamental and style differences between Chinese martial arts and Japanese martial arts? Flakture 07:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The number of syllables. Oops, that's Language Desk. :P —Tamfang 03:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to say, because the inter-country styles themselves vary. From my own experience, the mainland arts (e.g., from China and Korea) tend to have a higher incidence of acrobatic techniques, while the Japanese styles are more about the linear application of power. What this translates to in practice is that the former disciplines, including Tae Kwon Do, look more impressive on film :) This is one of the reasons for the prevalence of Chinese styles in film... you rarely find a Shotokan practitioner as a major protagonist; although this is probably something a generalization itself. Did you read through the articles on Chinese martial arts and Japanese martial arts? These are sure to provide you with some useful information. ◄Zahakiel► 03:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

spanish refugees

who can tell story of refugees from basque land to england during the spanish civil war?Niorka —Preceding comment was added at 09:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The BBC has an article on the 4,000 children brought over in May of 1937 after Guernica. You might also be interested in this website. Wikipedia has little on the subject (George Steer, Leah Manning) but if you're headed to the library you might try:

• Kapp, Y. (1937). The Basque Children in England: an account of their life in North Stoneham camp. OCLC 2567955
• Legarreta, D. (1984). The Guernica Generation: Basque refugee children of the Spanish Civil War. OCLC 10924202
• Fyrth, J. (1986). The Signal was Spain: the Spanish Aid Movement in Britain, 1936-39. OCLC 15544957
• Bell, A. (1996). Only for Three Months: the Basque children in exile. OCLC 38924203
• Steer, G. L. (1938). The Tree of Gernika: a field study of modern war. OCLC 5341281

maybe we need an article?—eric 17:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

my new page

I wrote a page, Lucius Augustus Hardee. How does this get published to the Wikipedia community? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbmirish (talk • contribs) 15:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's already there - see Lucius Augustus Hardee. It needs a bit of work, though. Follow the links in the templates to get some pointers as to how it might be improved. Thanks for contributing! --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You already did, Pbmirish. That's a good start. Now you can try following the instructions that other editors already put on the page you created. Wikifying means creating links to other articles in Wikipedia. For example you can make a link to William Joseph Hardee by putting double square brackets around that name: [[William Joseph Hardee]]. It's also good too add references: just write what sources (books, websites) you used to write the article. Good luck editing Wikipedia! — Kpalion^(talk) 15:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Nineteenth century visiting

Could someone please explain to me the rituals behind Victorian social calls and leaving visiting cards? The literature of the day is full of this practice. 217.42.98.69 15:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested to read the article Visiting card. 86.21.74.40 15:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Some additional tidbits for you, 217.42, on a truly fascinating subject, a minefield for the socially unwary! The practice of leaving cards first established itself in Europe in seventeenth century France, where the visite biletes started off as playing cards upon which the caller signed her or his name. During the reign of Louis XIV specially printed cards began to appear, becoming an established part of social convention. By the end of the eighteenth century the practice had spread across the rest of fashionable Europe. Cards came in all shapes and sizes, but by the 1840s uniform dimensions had been established, though ladies generally had bigger cards than gentlemen. In Our Deportment, a publication of 1881, John Young, the author, notes "A lady's card should not bear her place of residence; such cards having, of late, been appropriated by members of the demi-mode." So, make sure you keep the riff-raff from the door!

In the course of the nineteenth century the whole thing had developed into an elaborate 'tribal' ritual, worthy, it might be said, of anthropological study. In Modern Manners and Forms, published in 1889, Julia Bradley says "The quality of the card, its size and style, the hour and manner in which it is left-all these convey a silent message to the experienced eye which indicates the character of the caller."

It was also important to know when to leave a card, and for whom: one card for the lady of the house, another for the master and a third for any grown-up son. When a lady went calling she would take with her the cards of her husband, who was considered too busy to be visiting. If a gentleman called for reasons other than business the visit would always be to the lady, not the master. Calls were generally made between three and six in the afternoon of designated 'At Home' days. These afternoon visits were, paradoxically, known as Morning Calls, because they came before dinner, a meal that was originlly held at about 1pm, gradually moving to the evening.

Although calling cards were still in use well into the twentieth century, generally being left after balls and receptions during the season, by the 1950s, the practice was dead. You see, the domestic servant was an essential adjutant to the whole custom, one might say the only real excuse for leaving cards at all. After the Second World War fewer and fewer people went into domestic service, and there was hardly much point in carrying cards if the door of the house was answered by the lady in person! Clio the Muse 23:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Playing cards, eh? I've just read that they were used for currency (i.e. government debt) in French Canada. – What langauge is visite biletes? The obvious French form would be billets de visite. —Tamfang 03:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

King Wenceslaus CSI

The article on King Wenceslaus is vague on where he was actually murdered. Maybe through the annals of time the location has been generalized so much that it's actually unknown now, but if anyone would know it would be the readers of this very forum. Thank you Beekone 15:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

According to this site he was killed in the doorway of the old church of St. Cosmas and Damian, now the location of St. Wenceslas Basilica in Stara Boleslav, there is a sculpture depicting the murder at the supposed authentic location.—eric 22:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Stock split - affect preferred stock?

When a stock split is announced does the company's preferred stock also split, or just the common stock?71.227.8.246 15:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Baker Mom

A preliminary search seems to indicate that it's up to the corporation's board of directors whether to split preferred as well as common stock, but I do not yet have a verifiable source. --LarryMac | Talk 21:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no particular reason why both stocks should be split at once. A split is because it is felt that the price of a share is inconveniently high. Since the values of the preferred and commmon shares vary independently, the need to split them would also vary independently. Similarly if there are different classes of shares. Here's an example of a company that split its common shares (search for "split" in the article) and also has preferred shares which were not split (or it would have said so). --Anon, 00:10 UTC, November 9, 2007.

Ariarathes I of Cappadonia

1. Was the wife of Ariarathes I of Cappadocia called Laodice?
2. Did Laodice go by any other name?
3. Was Laodice the daughter of Mithridates II of Cius?
4. Did she have a brother named Mithridates?
5. Did Laodice later marry Nicomedes I of Bithynia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.134.46.249 (talk) 16:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

see Ariarathes VI of Cappadocia, Laodice of Cappadocia, Mithridates V of Pontus, and Nicomedes III of Bithynia.—eric 17:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Eric, that answers all the questions. Now i see the connections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.132.34.183 (talk) 19:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Where to find new short comedy film scripts for independant low-budget production

I'm planning to make some short comedy films, and have most of the resources and unpaid personnel needed. Rather than writing my own script, I think it would be better to use some of the tens of thousands of scripts written every year (and never used) written by thousands of would-be scriptwriters. Where would be the best places on the internet to find such scripts or contact would-be scriptwriters? While I would not be paying anything, the scriptwriter would be getting several people spending a lot of time and effort in making a free advert for their work. Since this is more about writing I guess that this question would be more appreciated here than on the Entertainment desk. Thanks 80.0.114.222 19:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

My guess: Entertainment Desk might be a better bet. What I'd do first: try searching "screenplay" at www.lulu.com. AndyJones 19:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You might want to try a script-writing course or amateur script doctor workshop, of course there's not much guarantee on quality but it might be a good place for originality. Alternatively it might be possible to adapt existing comedy writing either from print or from the radio. Keria 09:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• People are writing scripts all over the place. Lulu is a good place to start, but there's also scriptbuddy.com and triggerstreet.com and several studentfilm sites. Spend a weekend on Google and you'll find loads more places. - Mgm|^(talk) 23:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Diseases on board a pirate ship

what diseases could be found on a pirate ship? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.190.223 (talk) 20:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Scurvy. Arrrrr! --Kurt Shaped Box 20:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

syphilis and gonorrhea. dysentery. Ship fever (typhus). bacterial infections of wounds, gunshot and otherwise, with and without gangrene, requiring amputation. (see peg leg) Sun stroke. Exposure. Malaria. Cholera. Yellow fever. plague. - Nunh-huh 21:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

But then after a while at sea without port call a boat would become clear of most virus induced diseases. Keria 21:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The only viral illness mentioned was yellow fever, and the question was not about pirates without port call. - Nunh-huh 21:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Nunh-huh I didn't mean to complete or criticise your post only to point out that a ship that stays long enough at sea or only stops in remote sparsely populated locations (as Pirate ships do) becomes pretty healthy in terms of diseases compared to a town or city and considering the proximity or even promiscuity. I'm actually quite impressed with your list of diseases. Keria 09:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

What's the deal with the sexually transmitted diseases? Were there gay pirates? --81.79.235.19 21:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Umm... Of course there were, but most were heterosexual, and they therefore accounted for most of the sexually transmitted disease. You might be interested in Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash: Piracy, Sexuality, and Masculine Identity, Hans Turley (New York and London: New York University Press, 1999.) and Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth-Century Caribbean, Barry R. Burg. Johnny Depp certainly was. - Nunh-huh 22:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You know what they say about 'Rum, Sodomy and the Lash'... :) --Kurt Shaped Box 22:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Um, heterosexuals, especially those who traffic with prostitutes, especially in days before any sorts of reasonably feasible barrier contraception, are quite prolific vectors for STDs. --24.147.86.187 22:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's no coincidence that wherever you have docks, you find strumpets touting for business. Coupled with the fact that 'it's not gay if you're at sea, drunk and bored' (apparently), then yeah - most of them probably did have the clap/pox... --Kurt Shaped Box 23:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Some men who are confined for long periods with each other, eg. in prisons and on board ships, often engage in sexual activity with each other. Some of these men are gay but, as with the general population, most are not. Because opposite-sex partners are unavailable, some straight men are prepared to make do with "second-best". This does not make them gay. To argue otherwise is to suggest that (a) gay people deliberately choose the navy or deliberately do whatever it takes to be sent to prison, just so that they can have unfettered access to same-sex partners, and (b) they do these things in numbers disproportionate to their representation in the general population. There's no evidence for either of these suppositions. -- JackofOz 11:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

So you can sleep with men and not be gay! Thank god for loopholes I guess, someone call the GOP. Seriously though, could I call them bi-sexual with a preference for women given the choice or something? Given this logic you could go out for the night, try to get a girl to go home with you, fail, "settle" for a willing guy, and not be gay. Whatever, works for me I guess ;). Gay Like a Fox —Preceding comment was added at 15:16, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be pretty funny if it *was* true, though... ;) --Kurt Shaped Box 20:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not gay if the balls aren't touching. Lanfear's Bane | t 16:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen this? An amusing list of 'It's not gay ifs' with commentary. Well, it made me smile, anyway. --Kurt Shaped Box 20:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Jackofoz is right in pointing out that a sexual encounter with a person of the same sex doesn't necessarely make someone homosexual. Homosexuality refers to an attraction to people of the same sex which can be realised in a sexual relation. Promiscuity in a same sex environment favours homosexual behaviour above the normal population ratio. Once out of these confined environments people who have engaged in gay sex most often return to their previous sexual paterns, the homosexual encounter often leaving deep psychological marks. Another example of homosexual behaviour for normaly heterosexual people is the sexual discovery period during the adolescence where it is frequent for boys and girls to have gay experieneces without it determining their later sexual orientation. None of these behaviour qualifies the person as a bisexual either. Keria 20:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not gay, I'm just promiscuous in same-sex environments (men's restrooms)... Eh, I understand what you and Jack are getting at, just makes the designation seem strangely arbitrary to me; which is fine, I'm comfortable without any hard, firm rules governing it, but I don't actually see how the definition you give excludes the situations being talked about. Also, I assume then that were you to confine individual homosexuals with groups of the opposite sex for extended periods you'd see a similar effect in the other direction? Azi Like a Fox 22:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is with poor terminology, not with sexual identity. We've all seen the tabloids screaming "Star in gay sex romp" etc. What they mean is that a supposedly straight celebrity is alleged to have had a sexual encounter with another person of the same sex. The celebrity may or may not be gay; but the sexual activity is not "gay". That word is - or should be - reserved for people, not used to describe sexual activity. However, I live in the real world and I have to accept the fact that sex between people of the same sex is often (poorly) described as "homosexual sex" or "gay sex"; but even then it's describing the activity, not the individuals participating in it. There's nothing necessarily inconsistent between "I have engaged in homosexual/gay activity" and "I am not a homosexual/gay person". -- JackofOz 01:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if the use of the term is arbitrary like you said Azi Like a fox. My first reaction reactions to such strong classification (who's gay who's not) would be "who cares be happy with whoever" unfortunately people seem to care a great deal, to the point where some country still carry a dead sentence for homosexual acts. I just wanted to show that the boundery of someone's sexuality often wasn't clear or fixed. Another example of blurred boundaries would be the married father who doesn't desire his wife anymore and only fantasizes on men. He may never act on it (of many reasons why, one might be social conformism) but it doesn't make his desire any less real. Yet another example would be the antic greek style of sexual behaviour as a way of asserting social hierarchy and forming bonds between pupil and master. In this context the social convenience favours homosexuality as much as in another context it will repress the 1st example's father longings. It would be great to live in a world where these distinctions wouldn't be much relevant but it seems we're a long ways away. On another note I would like to apologies to the Original Poster for having highjacked his thread and turned it into a debate about homosexuality. Keria 09:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversial History Theory

Hi All, I need help again. I've noticed in certain academic papers and news reports, there is either vague suggestions or outright statements that the Middle East is stuck "500-1000" years ago. Its as if the academics are saying that nations or people go though historical cycles, and that the Middle East is in the Middle Ages, with the implication that it will take hundreds of years for the Middle East to modernize themselves.

My question: is there a specific historical term/theory/philosophy to back this idea up? Any specific names, people, academic journal, books etc. etc. is greatly appreciated. Thank you. Zidel333 23:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't specifically answer your question, but I felt compelled to add that the Middle East during the Middle Ages is considered to have been 'ahead' of Europe in terms of philosophy, technology and artistic culture. To answer the question, it would be necessary to know what characteristics the Middle Ages and Modern Times have distinguish the different time periods. Steewi 01:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It's kind of orientalism in reverse, I guess. Or maybe just regular Orientalism. Adam Bishop 01:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.48 (talk)

Anyone who says the Middle East today is stuck in the 11th-16th centuries knows nothing of the Middle East today, knows nothing of the Middle East in the 11th-16th centuries, and knows nothing of Europe in the 11th-16th centuries. In my opinion. The Middle East is certainly quite different from the West at the moment but it is not analogous to the West in the Middle Ages nor to the Middle East in the Middle Ages. It's something different. --24.147.86.187 02:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem with saying that the Middle East is still in the Middle Ages is that it sets up the West's history as a standard. A better way to say it might be to say that culturally economically, and technologically, the Middle East is around the same level as Europe was in the Middle Ages. I don't even know that that's true, though. Some parts of the Middle East are pretty advanced. Wrad 02:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

History and the Middle East are invented traditions. The only reason why those concepts exist, is because people wrote books and talked about them. There can't be any proof for such statements. It is completely make-believe.

It could be said though that reality is expressed in facts and words. The Middle East is a concept relating to a geographically specific region in the world with a population and a culture (like islam) that is specific for it, while other regions are different. It is for the eye of the beholder to determine which fact is appropriate at a certain moment.

My impression is that people who state that the Middle East is stuck in a certain period, have the idea that their region (like the west) is somehow better. But, since they are using an invented tradition, it is a useless statement. Those who make these kind of statements have to work hard to stay the best, but they really aren't, so it is a pointless job. They are standing on quicksand, or trying to keep a the sand in their hand confind in a tight grip. It certainly wouldn't be a group i want to be part of. It is better to be the best without having the need to say it, than to say you are the best even when it isn't so.Daanschr 14:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Even the term: "Middle East" is a western creation. As it is less east than China ("The Far East") from western europe. Arabian Peninsula would be a better term, although the Arabs themselves refer to the area as the middle east. Wrad 19:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, it is true to say that the Middle East is nearly unique in the way it has developed over recent history. With the exception of the Levant, the rest of the Middle East has grown rich from selling natural resources, and the resulting wealth has mostly been concentrated amongst traditional élites (there are relatively few Arab Nouveau Riche). This method of developement deprives the Middle East of the process of bourgeoisisation that has occured in almost every other society to some extent, and in tern deprives the region of the resulting improvements to education and civil society that otherwise make up the general narrative of developemental history throughout the world. However, while it may be defendable to say that the Middle East is further down the developement scale than other regions, to generalise this and say that the Middle East is further down some kind of historical scale of civilisation isn't as defendable, and leaves one with a lot of nasty conclusions. Ninebucks 20:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Deadlyiest century in the world

In the history of the world what was the deadliest century? Skate&Create 23:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean most deaths, or most deaths in proportion to the population, or something else? Since the world population was far higher in the 20th century than in any other century completed so far, the total number of deaths must have been correspondingly higher. For deaths as a proportion of the population, I suspect the answer is the 14th century due to the Black Death, but I don't have good comparative statistics at hand. --Anonymous, 00:18 UTC, November 9, 2007.

According to the Toba catastrophe theory, an eruption of a supervolcano at Lake Toba, on Sumatra, that took place 70,000 to 75,000 years ago, reduced the human population to 10,000 or even a mere 1,000 breeding pairs, creating a bottleneck in human evolution. This in turn accelerated differentiation of the isolated human populations, eventually leading to the extinction of all the other human species except for the two branches that became Neanderthals and modern humans. So it could be that the deadliest century (for humans) was one between the 748th and 698th centuries BC. — Kpalion^(talk) 02:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but the question asked about history, not prehistory! I don't think you can cite a century as the answer unless you know which one it is. --Anon, 02:52 UTC, Nov. 9.

I would be surprised, Skate&Create, if any century has exceeded the twentieth in the scale of deadliness. Clio the Muse 04:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it's a tie between every century prior to the nineteenth CE. Every human being who lived in those centuries is now dead. -88.110.219.179 10:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, every person in every age has a 1/1 probability of dying at some point. :) Wrad 19:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)