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March 19

Quick sourcing question

Resolved

Okay heres a quick question of my own, How do I source a historical plaque on the grounds of a location (historical site) (can I do this?) thanks a bunch Ottawa4ever (talk) 00:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, you can. It's verifiable because anyone can visit the plaque site (though since that's the only way to verify, it is very limiting), and I would consider it putatively reliable because historical plaques mounted "officially" have the imprimatur of the organization mounting it and are normally made after careful thought and research by whatever organization is paying for words to be cut into bronze/marble etc. Context could change this but a plaque commissioned by a city or town, a historical society, a museum, a library and so on are going to be seen as having a reliable basis. As for how to do this, references do not have to follow a slavish technical form. The goal is to make your source as transparent as possible. I can make up an example that would be fine, and you could change the format drastically and it'd still be fine so long as a person reading it gets the information:

<ref>Commemorative plaque mounted in 5th Avenue entrance lobby of New York's [[Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum]], detailing.... Commissioned by Guggenheim Foundation. Viewed on March 19, 2009.</ref>

. Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

perfect thanks Ottawa4ever (talk) 02:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The society that established the marker may have it listed on their web site. We have an article on historical marker that links to a database and to lists articles on markers. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you really want to go to extremes, you should take a picture of the plaque and place the picture on Commons. In the description on commons, place the date and time you took the picture and the geo-location. Reference the picture from the article, or actually put the picute in the article if it improves the article. -Arch dude (talk) 21:31, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Abuse Filter Editor privilege

What's the criteria for it? Do you have to ~~be super-awesome~~ have practice on a certain area of WP, or what? Where's the discussion on it? Please, feed my yearning brain! (In all due seriousness, it looks cool. How can I find out more about it?) Thanks. —Mr. E. Sánchez (that's me!)^{What I Do} / _{What I Say} 01:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:FILTER and the talk page have a lot of info on this. I'm not so sure that the filter is something we use, as something that is implemented. My impression is that the primary "who gets it" issue is more on who can edit the particular filter conditions. I think they are creating a "log" to view the things that get trapped by the filter as well. — Ched ~ ^(yes?)/_© 01:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The feature was just implemented yesterday, so we haven't yet worked out the details. The current consensus seems to be careful in handing it out because the filter is very powerful. Admins can give the privilege. Some sort of experience in bot building or using regular expressions would be helpful. Abusive or questionable editing would likely disqualify someone from getting it. - Mgm|^(talk) 05:55, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How do I find out why my edits were deleted?

I added a couple of paragraphs and a link to a video within the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysmenorrhea#Explanation

A couple of days later, everything was deleted.

How do I find out why? I would like to fix what I did wrong.

My userID is: santonellis —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santonellis (talk • contribs) 02:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You were reverted twice by C.Fred (talk · contribs) and Phil Knight (talk · contribs). To view all the past revisions to the page go to the history tab at the top of the page. This shows all past revisions from which you can then use to view a diff (difference) between the revisions. If you would like to discuss add that video you can do so at the talk page for the article (click the talk tab at the top of the page). As a note when posting to a talk page please use 4 tildes (~~~~) to sign your post. —Nn123645 (talk) 03:31, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After looking at the link it appears the video you added was a .swf file which requires Flash Player to view. As per the external link guidline resources which require plugins to view are typically not added as external links. As I said above I'd recommend taking your concerns to the article talk page and posting a note on both user's talk pages linking them to the discussion. —Nn123645 (talk) 03:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Viewing ISO 15924 4-letter codes

I can see everything about the ISO 15924 4-letter codes except how to view them. I'm running Firefox, MS XP. Help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.18 (talk) 02:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An ISO 15924 4-letter code is just a four-letter abbreviation for the name of a writing system. There's a full list of them at List of ISO 15924 codes. Algebraist 03:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And almost any article that is listed for a script that has one of these four letter codes, has information on the fonts that you need to use to display the script on your computer. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

changing kids their last names from their original names?

ok heres a question? Does my ex-wife who has full custody of the kids is allowed to change the kids fathers last name on her own without the fathers consent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.24.89.80 (talk) 03:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is the help desk for Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It is a place for getting help with Wikipedia. It is not a place to seek legal advice. For legal advice, you should ask a qualified lawyer. Algebraist 03:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you that she is probably not allowed to change your name without your consent, which seems to be what the question implies. TN X Man 11:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Depends where you live. In Britain, a mother could change a child's surname by deed poll, without permission of the other parent, if the child is over 16. But as Algebraist said, this is the wrong place to ask this question. Seraphim ♥ 11:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Country? State? Kittybrewster ☎ 16:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please note, we cannot give legal advice, please consult your attorney. – ukexpat (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does your location distinguish between legal custody and physical custody? Many parents without physical custody, with visitaion rights or whatever, may still have joint legal custody and must be consulted or can prevent things like a name change or educational decisions, etc. Ask local counsel before you do anything! —Preceding unsigned comment added by L8nite (talk • contribs) 18:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IP adress of registered user!

I wonder how can we find the IP address of a user who creates an account, edits an article and then deletes the account. I shall be grateful if someone can help me in this regard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.157.19 (talk) 05:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can't. Because that can't occur. Accounts don't get deleted. - Mgm|^(talk) 05:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
IP Addresses of people with registered accounts are not disclosed under the Privacy Policy. This information is available, but only to people with checkuser access, which may only be used under specific cretira. All user's and IPs edits are listed at Special:Contributions. —Nn123645 (talk) 07:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image from German page

The German wikipedia has a picture de:Datei:Friesentracht.JPG the user has given it a "free for all" copyright. I'd like to use it in Tracht. How do I do that? 76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To get the image for use on the English Wikipedia, you have to upload it either here or to commons. But you'll need an autoconfirmed account to do that. So I've gone ahead and uploaded it for you. You can now use File:Friesentracht.JPG on the English Wikipedia. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Minor correction, Commons does not have an autoconfirmation requirement. – ukexpat (talk) 17:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.245.5 (talk) 18:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External Links by namespace

Hi! Is there a way to filter these results by namespace? It would be pretty useful. Thanks! -- Basilicofresco (msg) 08:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can do this with the linksearch feature of the API. See MW:API:Query - Lists#exturlusage / eu Someguy1221 (talk) 08:31, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

quote of arms

how do i find the salinas family quote of arms? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.51.153 (talk) 09:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably looking for information on their coat of arms - though I don't believe an article devoted to the family exists on Wikipedia, you could try asking at the Humanities section of our reference desk, which specializes in knowledge questions like yours. This is the helpdesk, for questions about using Wikipedia itself. Gonzonoir (talk) 09:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Try Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Creating a Page on Wikipedia about my Book .

Hi ,

I am a young indian writer. And i have recently written a Hindi Fiction Book "Nari Bal: Nirbal" .This Book is about the Women Issues in india. It is widely recognized as my personal and social achievement. I want to create a page on wikipedia containg the article , passage from book and book's cover page . Kindly Advise me the way to do it. I will be highly thankful to you.

My Details are :- Name :- Satyawan Singh Tarar ocation :- New Delhi, India

Dhanimiran (talk) 09:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.

Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.

If you still think an article is appropriate, see Help:Starting a new page. You might also look at Wikipedia:Your first article and Wikipedia:How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Wikipedia:Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. Gonzonoir (talk) 11:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since you want to write about a subject you are related to (the book), you need to read see Wikipedia:FAQ/Article subjects. Any subject must be backed up by reliable sources; since this is the English Wikipedia, it is highly preferred that they be in English. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:21, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Author

I am wanting to know who is the author of Wikipedia and specically the author of the pages on Kent Hovind.

Is Wikipedia able to be edited by the general public?

Is Wikipedia meant to be factual or can it contain bias?

Paul Russell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.208.127.120 (talk) 10:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Who writes Wikipedia. Anyone can edit; see Wikipedia:How to edit a page and Wikipedia:Replies to common objections. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And more specifically, at the top of any article is the History tab. Click that to see everyone who has edited the article (along with what they edited). This will include good-faith editors, vandals, vandal-fighters, bots, etc... Arakunem^Talk 16:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Changing a Title of an article

I would like to change the title from Lockheed Martin Sniper XR to Lockheed Martin Sniper ATP on the article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_XR Devinn123 (talk) 12:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:FAQ/Editing; Is suggest you discuss this on the article talk page. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Screenshot of Wikipedia article source

Does an unedited screenshot of a Wikipedia article source fall under the GFDL? 78.34.x.x (talk) 13:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it is readable then yes. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't contain any non-GFDL images (such as the Wikipedia logo) either. Algebraist 16:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's content is protected by copyright law. If anyone creates a copy of any non-trivial part of Wikipedia (and an entire screenshot is certainly non-trivial) then that copy must be done in compliance with copyright law, or the copy is illegal and exposes the copier to legal sanctions. To comply with copyright law, the copier must either get a license from the Wikimedia foundation (and all contributors to the screenshot) and comply with all restrictions of that license, or the copier must be able to make a valid assertion of "fair use" of the screenshot. "Fair use" of a screenshot will depend heavily on the exact circumstances, so it is a whole lot safer to get a licence and comply with it. "Getting a license" is easy: everything on wikipedia (except for "fair use" images) is licensed to anyone under the GFDL. So if the copier complies with all provisions of the GFDL, then the copy is legal. There is a small problem if the screenshot includes a "fair use" image, as the "fair use" justification that Wikipedia uses to place the image in the wikipedia article is not inheritable. The copier of the screenshot will need to separately justify the use of the image under "fair use" doctrine. -Arch dude (talk) 02:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Username

Why has 'Alanbey' been rejected as my username ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.2.103.49 (talk) 15:02, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because it is too similar to User:Alanbly. You can create User:Alanbey only by request; see Wikipedia:Username policy for more help. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:07, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How do I make it where the text is hidden, until someone clicks on something to make it appear?

Something to click on the page, and then it folds down, showing other text. Makes it easier to manage things. How do I make that happen? Dream Focus 16:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{hat}} and {{hab}}. Hermione1980 16:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's specifically for archiving talk page discussions. For more general situations, see Help:Collapsing. Algebraist 16:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. There are various ways to do this, none of them allowing adding or editing of text inside an area once created though. Dream Focus 18:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What? All of them allow editing text within the area. This is a wiki! Algebraist 18:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to create input forms, we have an InputBox extension. Please describe more clearly what you want to do, because the description you gave seems to suggest you want to do what a wiki already does. Perhaps you are asking about an Outliner feature. The MediaWiki software that powers Wikipedia doesn't really offer anything like that, but outline editing would be possible (in theory) if you used some sort of offline editor as a thick client. That is, you could collapse an article into a list of section headings, and expand sections individually for editing. I don't think that would be easy to implement using MediaWiki's thin client model, but as I said you could do it with an offline editor. I haven't looked at what's available for a while so I have no idea if you could find such a feature, but if you want to look, you could start with WP:EIW#EditSoft. I would recommend against simulating an outline feature by making every section body in an article individually collapsible, because that would undoubtedly annoy many other users. You would want to keep the outlining stuff to yourself, and that might be possible if you use an external editor. --Teratornis (talk) 19:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For doing that offline like Teratornis mentioned, Word has an "outline view" that does it adequately. ~user:orngjce223 ☺ how am I typing? 19:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Error in Osvaldo Ardiles

ossie ardiles played 311 games for spurs and scored 25 goals not as stated on his page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.104.113 (talk) 16:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a reliable source for that claim? Algebraist 16:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Use the talk page of that article to discuss it with other editors. And if you find a legitimate source of information, then you change whatever the article has wrong, and add in a reference ^[1] to where the information came from(the official site of the player, team, or league perhaps). Dream Focus 18:09, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why let anyone edit?

why do you let people add or take away things on your website because they might add false information and they might make fun of the situation. I know you filter the things people put on but that might not work all the time. anyway I guess that you think its ok and its your website but yu might want to think of the people getting info. off your website and its not always true.:(—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.124.240 (talk • contribs)
moved from top of this page by Capricorn24

Well, we have the {{Orly}} template to show when something may not be true, and letting anyone edit is good in some ways - people have different viewpoints, broadening our coverage of certain subjects. Queenie 17:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention all the tools we have in place to track down and fix blatant misinformation. Not everything you read is true on the internet or anywhere else for that matter. - 87.211.75.45 (talk) 17:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For background to the project see: WP:About. – ukexpat (talk) 17:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Wikipedia:Replies to common objections. In some fields Wikipedia is just as accurate as other encyclopedias. Nature (journal) once did a experiment in which science articles from Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica were compared and EB was only slightly more accurate 3 mistakes per article to our 4. Even publications some take as gospel aren't neccesarily faultless. - 87.211.75.45 (talk) 18:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The decision to allow anyone to edit on Wikipedia is a Community foundation issue, which roughly speaking means it is an ideological principle of Jimbo Wales. It is not a principle which anyone has logically justified; rather, it is simply one of many possible ways to run a wiki, and various wikis will succeed or fail as a function of how they are run. So far, the English Wikipedia's approach has worked pretty well. (See Wikipedia:Flagged revisions a slightly different approach which might someday come into effect here.) However, as Wikipedia has become increasingly developed, it has also become increasingly complex and therefore harder for new users to learn. This means it is becoming increasingly unlikely that a new user's first edits will "stick". Most people who edit something on Wikipedia will usually want their edits to remain visible for a while. As Wikipedia's core group of skilled editors becomes increasingly efficient at detecting and removing edits which don't comply with Wikipedia's increasingly detailed rules, this has much the same effect as not allowing unskilled users to edit at all. If we say we allow anyone to edit Wikipedia, but in practice it's really hard for a new user to get their edits to stick, then I think we are being less than perfectly honest. What we really mean is that anyone is free to spend hundreds of hours mastering our complex rules if they want their edits to stick for very long. --Teratornis (talk) 18:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

creating a link

Resolved

Zoo Fari 17:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How do I create a link in my website that will point to a wiki article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by L8nite (talk • contribs) 18:07, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The same way you would make any other link, using an anchor tag. Algebraist 18:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You use basic HTML/Tags you would with any other site. No, you can't place [[the article here]]! That is only Wiki codes used for Wikimedia only. Here is one code (not an anchor tag):

Zoo Fari 17:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

messed up afd

Hum, I don't seem to have much luck with automated tools lately this AFD seems messed up and doesn't seem to be in the log. Anyone able to fix it? --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:01, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should be fixed. Let me know if there are issues. Best, TN X Man 19:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Special characters in names of places in Vietnam in article titles

On new page patrol, I found stubs about Vietnamese communes, with the article title using ordinary letters but a version of the name with special characters in the first sentence of the stub (for example, Duong Thuy ("Dương Thủy"). I renamed a couple of these to the names with special characters.

Question: Should the article title use the special characters? (Obviously if so, there should be a redirect from the plain-characters name.)

One of the ones I moved is [1] Sơn Thủy.

The other one is more complicated: I may have made a bit of a mess, (but I think I just fixed it by fixing a double redirect): first I moved [2] Xuan Thuy, Le Thuy to Xuân Thủy (I think); then, realizing, that the "Le Thuy" is probably needed in the article title to distinguish from the article Xuan Thuy which is about a person (who also possibly should be moved to a name with special characters), I moved it again to [3] Xuân Thủy, Le Thuy. Anyway, some disambiguating hatnotes are probably needed for this case, but first I need to know whether the article titles should have special characters or not. Thanks. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:UE#Modified letters. – ukexpat (talk) 19:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

how do i delete an article name that is spelled wrong, but keep the article that has the correct spelling?

I created the article DW Green Company but it was flagged and deleted. When I created a new article, the title of then name was not properly capitalized.

Now there is an article called DW Green Company and one called Dw green company. how do i delete the incorrectly spelled one?

Ehutchinson (talk) 19:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No need to delete it as it is now a redirect to DW Green Company. – ukexpat (talk) 19:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is it appropriate to edit for grammar and/or spelling?

I made a change to a discussion page that had some simple spelling errors, and now that I think about, I'm not sure if it's necessary or even looked upon favorably. I tried looking through some of the Wiki guidelines and couldn't find any specific mention as to whether or not editing for grammar is encouraged. While I'm not necessarily OCD about grammar, I feel that it is helpful for everyone if words are spelled properly and sentences are comprehensible...any feedback is appreciated, thanks! Realitychecksme (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's discouraged. WP:TPG#Others' comments is the relevant guideline. Algebraist 19:57, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's always fine to edit articles for grammar. In fact, there is an entire category of articles that need some attention. You can find them at this page. However, other people's comments should generally be left as is. TN X Man 19:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Editing others' comments is, in fact, frowned upon, except in cases of obvious vandalism. The guidelines are here. No harm done, but in the future, if you suspect the original author isn't comfortable writing in English, you can always leave a note on their talk page offering to help them with spelling and grammar. If they appear to just be a lazy speller, well, that probably won't go over too well. --Fullobeans (talk) 20:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quick responses and relevant links, I'm fairly new to the editing aspect of Wiki and trying to learn as best I can as far as proper conduct is concerned. I had a feeling that editing comments was a bad idea though, which is why I posted the help question. I'm off to revert my change and take a look at the articles.

Also, if you can get in an argument with them you can use your demonstrably superior grasp of the English language as evidence that they are wrong! I suggest extensive use of quotes and [sic]s. TastyCakes (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding spelling and grammar fixes on articles. Remember that several regional variations of English are acceptable if the subject of the article isn't specifically linked to one particular country. The article about British Prime Minister Gordon Brown would be written in British English, the one about Barack Obama in American English. We have an article about the differences, but I forgot what it's called) - Mgm|^(talk) 23:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps WP:ENGVAR? TN X Man 23:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And since this discussion is about quibbling, I should point out that our project pages are not articles, according to Wikipedia's jargon. For even more information about spelling, see: WP:EIW#Spell. And read Wikipedia: The Missing Manual. --Teratornis (talk) 03:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What did User:Willy on Wheels do?

Resolved

– He did a lot of damage - this question is not to do with using Wikipedia.

Pedro : Chat 21:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just wondering - he seems to be quite well known in Wikipedia.79.66.47.16 (talk) 21:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was one of Wikipedia's worst vandals, being most active, I believe, in 2004. He took advantage of the fact that any autoconfirmed user can move pages, and he moved a ton of pages from "title" to "title on wheels". I think he also managed to replace the Wikipedia logo you see on wikipedia.org with his special logo. Xenon54 (talk) 21:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that he made many vandalbots and got many followers to destroy the project. L07ChLeo3 (talk) 21:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the upside, his actions led to the development of technical abilities that make such vandalism a lot harder and cleanup after an incident easy as pie for administrators. At the moment, it's impossible to do any real damage before being noticed and shut down. - Mgm|^(talk) 23:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You guys make him sound like Voldemort ;) TastyCakes (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't say that name! We prefer to say 'you know who on wheels'.RJFJR (talk) 18:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

^ reference

[1] reference

[1]