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Red Tomato and Cross section

[edit]
Ripe tomato and cross section
Alternative
Photo from tomato article.

Beautifully ripe tomatoes purchased believe it or not from Safeway. Excellent enc value

Appears (surprise surprise!) in Tomato

  • Support Self Nom. --Fir0002 08:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I won't vote on this (it would get lost in a sea of "supports" whatever I did), but I just want to point out that these photographs may be highly informative about certain aspects of a tomato (it's red with a squishy interior), but I find them incredibly anaemic. Additionally, I think the encyclopaedic value of it is compromised entirely by the lack of scale information and total lack of context. How do they grow? Do they pop up from a white table plump and ripe? Basically, technically competent, otherwise bereft. --Vaelta 08:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support original To the comment above, this is the "finished product" shot. How they grow can be covered in another image.--HereToHelp 10:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Having looked at the tomato article I have to oppose this photo. While it IS the most appropriate image to use as the title image, being simple and clean, nothing about this image deserves to be "featured", and it is considerable less "encyclopaedic" than many others on the same page. Just below, for instance, is a small group of tomatoes on a plate: it's not flashy but it does the job of showing scale and variety. Secondly, another of the photos further below (perhaps far too small to be a featured picture) is of tomato slices with light shining through, taken, surprisingly, by a US government agency (it seems). I found this picture to be more interesting than this featured picture candidate. --Vaelta 10:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm completely with Vaelta- is this "Among Wikipedia's best work"? I'd argue that it's not. The image is fine, but there's nothing "featured-worthy" about it. -- Kicking222 13:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please vote according to the criteria, in what respect is this image not fulfilling the criteria? --Fir0002 06:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
users first vote on FPC --Fir0002 06:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, this is in no way my first vote on FPC. Second, I already voted according to the criteria- it fails #3, "Is among Wikipedia's best work", which I explicitly mentioned above. Third, I'm now changing my !vote to Strong Oppose based on the nominator's above comments. -- Kicking222 07:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First, this is your first vote on FPC. Second, in what way is it not of Wikipedia's best work? Third, you can do that but it doesn't make any difference. In fact, childish actions like that are more than likely to result in your vote being unconsidered in the final decision. --Fir0002 08:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fir, no offence but you're beginning to dig a hole for yourself here. Kicking222 has made nearly 6400 edits to the project, including quite a few here not to mention a very large number at Featured Article Candidates. The user's first FPC edit tag isn't intended for users with significant contribution histories who clearly have a good understanding of the project's workings and policies. Seriously, you should consider not responding to comments you feel are off the mark - if you're right, other people will be able to judge that for themselves. I don't think Kicking222's vote is out of line. --YFB ¿ 15:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, YFB. I was about to make pretty much the exact same comment- I was even planning on doing the one-word-per-link thing- and not just did you beat me to the punch, but you probably did so far more eloquently than I would have. The nominator was also somewhat rude to Makemi below, and that user is an administrator. I'm not saying that my opinions are more or less important because I've been here for a long time; this is not the case. However, I do think my objection is completely valid. Also, even if you (the universal "you") don't agree with the "Among WP's best work" criterion, gren brings up a spectacular point below, which is that this image also fails criterion #8, as the photo has the barest of captions. -- Kicking222 16:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And yeah, let it be known that, while I have not participated in many FPC discussions, I have certainly participated in more than zero. The fact that I've also participated in (literally) thousands of XFD, FAC, RFA, etc. discussions should show that I've got at least a fair grasp of policy. (Though, as I've become far more interested over the past few months in the WP: space than the article space, I'd argue that I have an excellent grasp of policy. And even if I didn't, I could read- and have read many times- the Featured Picture criteria.) -- Kicking222 16:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops sorry! I guess I should have click on the "older 50" button :-) I didn't mean any offence by the 1 edit thing, but it's pretty customary to mark new users how may not understand how FPC works --Fir0002 22:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Um, you're welcome. Although I'd prefer not to think of it as a "punch", but rather a gentle invitation to have a nice cup of tea and a sit down. Some of the opposes here have used dubious reasoning; Kicking222's isn't one of them (although the caption issue has been debated ad nauseum and Fir0002 is one of those who sees it as optional - this isn't the place to restart that discussion) and vitriolic and/or snarky posts from Vaelta, Fir, Arad and anyone else who cares to join in are not helpful. Let's get back to commenting on content, rather than contributors, please. --YFB ¿ 16:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because although the tomato may be red, it is not properly ripe. A good tomato should not have such grainy and pale flesh. It's a good photo of an unappetizing tomato. Mak (talk) 15:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on myself - I just want to mention that I strongly support high quality encyclopedic images of every day objects. It's just that I have this thing about not-really ripe tomatos :( Mak (talk) 15:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The outside is bright red, I'm talking about the inner flesh. It's also the wrong texture. Maybe it's just because I'm from NJ where we have real tomatos :) Mak (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well I've never even in home grown "real" tomatoes seen the inner texture be anything other in appearance than what is pictured here. What about other people? At any rate just because it doesn't look the same as the species you're used to, it is fully representative of the species in Australia, and hence I can't see any reason for you to object to the image. I mean saying it's not like the tomatoes you have is like opposing an Australian ant photo because it's not like the ants you have in NJ. Please reconsider --Fir0002 06:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The original is technically great (the alternative is crap in comparison), and it sure is a valuable contribution to show the tomato fruit. But I'd say this is rather a QI than an FP. That stream of opposes comes across pretty hard though. The pic deservers a little more appreciation. This scan is pretty good too by the way. --Dschwen 15:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like that scan: on the vine with flowers. May I ask what "QI" is? Quality Image? If so, I would agree that this candidate is most certainly a "quality" image, just nothing especially noteworthy. It's not something I would have as my desktop certainly, and how I first came to know about Wikipedia's featured pictures is because I found myself downloading them to use as desktop wallpapers... --Vaelta 15:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is just so bizarre, suddenly FPC has become "pretty pictures". I can't comprehend the double standards that are currently being used on FPC, from this near identical candidate: Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Image:Red capsicum and cross section.jpg to what is happening here. Does enc not matter any more? Is it all "would I use this as my wallpaper?". We are an encyclopedia for crying out loud!!! It really makes you wonder why we went to so much trouble developing the criteria when new voters such as Vaelta either haven't bothered to read them or vote in flagrant disregard to the standards set forth there. --Fir0002 22:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, it is a bit troublesome that enc seems to be on the retreat. I guess the nomination closers should pay attention to the votes and weigh the arguments with respect to the criteria. --Dschwen 22:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, in that case you have me: I personally would have expected "featured pictures" to have a bit of wow factor about them. I know all the ones that made me keep coming back to Wikipedia did, and frankly, there is nothing wow about a couple of tomatoes (or bell peppers either for that matter...). However, if I really am voting in the wrong fashion then I accept I am wrong and Wikipedia is obviously not for me, as I do think that if you are to "feature" a picture it should have something special about it. I think my favourite in the current list of candidates is the flying Canadian goose below: technically it's a bit of a train wreck, but I can look at with an interest that two tomatoes fail to generate. --87.127.126.177 edit: Sorry, forgot to logon, Vaelta. 23:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vaelta, I think perhaps you're unclear about the purpose of Featured Pictures. A featured picture is intended to be an example of Wikipedia's best images; since Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, rather than a coffee-top photography book, the strongest emphasis we place is on encyclopaedic value - what does the image add the articles in which it appears, which helps the reader to better understand/appreciate the subject? If you want images which make great wallpaper, there are literally hundreds of sites dedicated specifically to that purpose, but Wikipedia isn't one of them. That's not to say that some of our photos don't make great desktops, but that's not why they're featured pictures. Now, I'm going to vote Weak Oppose to this picture (and I would have done the same for the bell pepper and for the walnut, if I'd been about - not that it would have made any difference...) because it doesn't actually tell me all that much about tomatoes - the vine photo does a better job, with the flowers and vine adding a great deal to the enc. I wouldn't support that one either, though, because the technical quality (composition, particularly) is only average, the tomato blends in too much with the background, and it's covered in a scary amount of dust (do people not look at these things before they scan them!?). My point is, though, that to be a featured picture an image doesn't have to make me go "wow, awesome, must have that as my wallpaper", it has to inform me about the subject, be technically excellent (except where there are mitigating circumstances) and, as a bonus, grab my attention. "Artistic" compositions and shooting techniques like those you're advocating are great if the aim is to produce art, but here the aim is to illustrate a reference work and the criteria that determine excellence are necessarily different. --YFB ¿ 00:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose - per above comment. --YFB ¿ 00:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Fir, don't forget about WP:BITE. Call this a wolf vote, but I still think these setups are technically great shots (most certainly Quality Images) that also have a great deal of enc. They show both the full view and the cross section, and at an extremely crisp resolution. There's only so much you can show in an image, and I don't think these images should be denied featured status because there is another way they could be taken. To me, it comes across as a generic photograph of an elephant being denied featured status because the animal isn't interacting with its environment. I think either way, a person unfamiliar with the subject can tell what it was by simply glancing at the photograph. --Tewy 02:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is a "sheep" vote better than a "wolf" vote then? And don't worry about biting me, because I am more than happy to bite back if provoked correctly. And I'd be happy to admit that I am glad some other people agree with my opinion that these "product" shots are nothing special: camera, two tomatoes, a knife, white surface, five minutes, hey presto! If a picture tells a thousand words, this picture has writer's block. --Vaelta 08:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try 45 minutes, a month of searching for perfect specimens and the eloquent perfection in expression which makes a thousand words look so small. As with all brilliant literature, it isn't surrounded by superfluous adjectives and sentences which require opera singers to be able to say in a single breath. It is the very essence of the tomato. The outside and the inside. Presented on a completely neutral background. Every anatomical feature of a tomato is present. The carefully chosen specimen exhibiting a fresh stalk, excellent interior balance between flesh and seed mucus. The surface of the tomato is almost without blemish. You could write an oddessy and still be unable to convey to someone who had never seen a tomato what this picture does. Writers block! My foot! A remark which is both a cheap shot and completely lacking in merit. ok back to my english homework :-) --Fir0002 10:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The internet lacks the immediacy of other mediums. Nothing wrong with adding your thoughts as you go... But I wouldn't call them witty anyway. Just observations... and I am a journalist, so it's habit to use metaphors and similes. --Vaelta 09:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • My sympathies that it took you a whole month to find such a tomato. Where do you live that good tomatoes are so rare? But anyway, now that you think it's amusing to spend your time looking through edit histories (my apologies if I'm straining their capacity, but as we are always told, "bandwidth is now cheap!"), I think I'm going to get back to packing my gear; I am spending the next week or so in the Ural mountains on assignment... Dasvi daniya! --Vaelta 10:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I saw it for the first time in the article today, and it looks especially nice in that context, in the taxobox. Debivort 18:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It is a fine photo that demonstrates about as much as can be demonstrated by a single image. Yes, you could take a photo of a tomato hanging from a vine, and you could photograph it far more aesthetically, but doing so would likely result in an image with far less encyclopaedic value as there would be more distracting elements. 'Product' shots obviously have a harder time running the FP gauntlet but they certainly have a valid place in an encylopaedia, and I think others are being unnecessarily unappreciative of this one. Lighting is very good and the perspective is just right (in the original, not so much in the alternative). Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 14:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There isn't another picture on the tomato page that I could see being an FP, including the one Vaelta posted here. The first image is extremely encyclopaedic, and it deserves to be an FP. To me it meets all the criteria and more importantly, it makes me want to eat a tomato. Amphy 17:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final Comment This is on a PDA so excuse any input errors. Although I know comments should be about the photo and not photographer, I need to point out how to me as a new user, Fir0002's behaviour has seemed very petulant and off-putting. I also want to say to you Fir0002 (having looked through some of your images) that I believe you are one of the most artistically stunted photographers I have seen, although I do of course see you have plenty of technical skill. Why do I think this? Because of your comments on the other photo from the tomato page: purely technical, nothing about the image itself. You seem to see photography purely in terms of dots per inch and errant artifacts. Perhaps this is mainly due to the nature of Wikipedia as a reference tool rather than art gallery, and if so, fine. I won't speculate anymore, and I don't feel a community that supports your behaviour with such nepotism is a particularly welcoming one. edit: Except for Dschwen: thanks for the welcome even after I managed to insult you. Perhaps the difference is in being able to take things a little more light-heartedly... --Vaelta 19:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't exactly been a ray of sunshine either Vaelta. The most "artistically stunted" photographer you've ever seen? Ouch, that could really hurt, but fortunately I've visited your own website. You know it might be a good idea to build up your own portfolio before criticizing someone elses. Currently the term "the kettle calling the pot black" hardly does justice to the situation. --Fir0002 08:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Uhm, thanks. But all the light-heartedness aside, and although I've also had my share of disagreements with Fir, I have to respond with two three quick points. You are right, this page should be used to comment on the photos, for further issues there is Wikipedia talk:Featured picture candidates. The most artistically stunted is indeed pretty harsh. Wikipedia is a reference tool, and over the course of many months the goals of Featured Pictures have been refined and discussed over and over again. The consensus that was reached has a pretty big emphasis on encyclopedic value. Check out commons:COM:FPC they seem to correspond more to your ideas of FPs (or the german FPC with their blatant disregard for the technical side). Nontheless, in my opinion Fir has always (mostly) succeeded to combine encyclopedic illustration with clarity and a very aesthetic look. Art should be open to interpretation, encyclopedic illustrations should do the explaining. So I hope you can get into a bit of the technical and encyclopedic side of photography and bring us back some great images from the Ural. --Dschwen 20:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, sorry. Every page has a talk page... gotcha. As harsh as I was, I hope Fir0002 doesn't take it too personally. His landscapes have beauty, particularly the current featured one on his userpage. And I hope he does have an artistic eye, even if Wikipedia doesn't get to see it. As for myself, I might look at the Commons when I get back, but I don't think my photos would ever be accepted here! I guess we all just use cameras in different ways: I don't think they are just simple recording devices, and I like photographs that capture not what my eyes see, but my mind, and its own interpretation of reality. Having an outlook like that makes it difficult for me to simply document; I always have to reinterpret. Hence, why I think the photograph of tomato slices is of value, blown red highlights or no. Okay, enough! --Vaelta 20:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • While I too have had my share of disagreements with Fir0002 and he can be quick to snap, he did have a fair point that you (and others) were applying your own personal criteria to the photos instead of using the community-agreed criteria. I suppose it could be by design a closed and unwelcoming 'system' but the fact is, we tend to get a lot of fly-by-nighters waltz in and start spraying their own opinions around without first getting a feel for what FPC is and what it aims for. It isn't a beauty contest (although obviously beautiful subjects are easier to present photographically) and it isn't about artistic expression. You're right, photography is different things to different people but it has been agreed that for the most part, photography for use here should be primarily encyclopaedic. That means succinct, high quality/resolution, accurate images, even if it results in what you consider soulless photography. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 22:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Emphatically seconded. --YFB ¿ 22:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • The problem is trying to define enyclopedicity - I still have a reluctance when it comes to the brilliant white background, especially for animals, but even here a tomato on the vine would tell you more about a tomato. I'm not convinced that enyclopedicity is best served by a sterile background replacing the natural context. Pstuart84 Talk 23:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • As explained last time you brought that up, white backgrounds are almost universally used in the scientific community to display specimens etc. They're extremely enc --Fir0002 08:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Vaelta, don't take harsh comments made on FPC seriosuly. Fir gets angry real fast, so we're used to it. Perhaps you'll enjoy Commons more since it's more about Quality and Beauty not Enc. And about this photo: it is nearly perfect on technical side but there is something that I don't like. Maybe because it has too much white. So I prefer not voting. --Arad 00:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Yeah thanks, Arad for your as always valued opinion. But the very fact you are (erroneously IMO) implying that I am some kind of hot headed volcano condemns your own nature. It's also interesting to note your double standard, vigorously, and dare I say angrily, asserting that a photo is worth featuring if wikipedia hasn't a better example on at least two occaisions. [1] [2] --Fir0002 08:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yeah, I do agree that i'm harsh sometimes. And I do make my comments look angrily sometimes. But I don't take it serious. And yes, I do make a lot of mistakes. But I don't get the point you're making here? I'm just saying that we should all take this FPC thing easy and do it for fun. After all we're not paid. You and me, we're probably the youngest contributers to this page (I think) so on my behalf, I do make mistakes, probably because I'm not that experienced. --Arad 22:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'd be a little freaked out if I saw a tomato sliced that neatly growing on a vine. The purpose of a cross section is not to show a tomato growing in the wild; it's to illustrate the parts of a tomato, and the white background does a fine job of that. ShadowHalo 23:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. You need a caption too... but, my weak oppose is because of blown highlights on the slice... they are speckly and really detract from the image. gren グレン 04:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The very model of modern featured picture. :) It's in focus, nice size, great colour, simple, and informative. The is an encyclopaedia, not the Louvre. Iorek85 09:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Devoid of context and the texture looks odd. It's an ok picture, but doesn't make me say "wow" in any way. The highlights are blown out, and the pure white specks of highlights in the slice look really bad. pschemp | talk 16:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - It meets all of the criteria, great color, shape and texture. It isn't absolutely perfect, but nothing is. Cacophony 16:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support original Don't like the alternate version, because it's overexposed. By the way, are you sure it's ripe? · AndonicO Talk 18:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Could everybody just cool down for a moment and remember: this is for discussing the image, not the voters or the photographer? If you really want to do that (and I would say that if you do, you are asking for an argument), a talk page would be a better place. How about if the strands involving bickering between Vaelta and Fir and those calling Fir "hotheaded" remain unedited for, say, 24 hours, so that we can keep this somewhat civil? Just a suggestion... J Are you green? 20:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not a bad idea, actually :). Maybe then I can concentrate on schoolwork... Anyhow, I just wanted to note that to an uninvolved passerby, everyone involved in that discussion doesn't really quite seem "cool." Thanks for the suggestion, though. See you 23:18, 4 May 2007! J Are you green? 23:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Just happened to be looking at the tomato article and clicked on what I thought was an amazing picture. Great enc, or whatever you guys call an excellent illustrative picture. I would love to see beautiful, encyclopedic images like this one on all flora/fauna articles! Alsandair 03:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, great picture, nice colours and post processing. Sometimes, very simple images turn out to be excellent. The edited version is rather overexposed and the quality of the picture is not there anymore. Terence 15:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose, horribly plain and dull, pathetic caption, camera flare visible on right hand tomato. Conor Campbell 16:57, 4 May 2007 (GMT)
  • Be civil please. Debivort 18:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The caption is surely no part of our judgement on the photo? I thought this was Featured Picture not Featured Caption - Adrian Pingstone 19:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have a read of the featured picture criteria - number eight is "The picture is displayed with a descriptive, informative and complete caption." And I'm sorry but if you're expecting to get a picture featured, the least you could do is make a half decent caption. Also, number three states that the picture must be "among Wikipedia's best work." This, quite simply, isn't. It's technically excellent, but then I could go and take technically excellent pictures of a hundred thousand other random household foods, implements, etc etc, and expect them to be featured. And IMO, a really encyclopedic picture of a tomato would at least have some part of the plant it grows on in it. Conor Campbell 15:46, 5 May 2007 (GMT)
  • Neutral, but comment: How come a shot like this spawns such a heated debate? The pic is pretty good, high in enc, low in "wow", but hey - we should discuss the picture of these ripe tomatoes, not throw them! --Janke | Talk 06:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose, nothing special, sorry. And try searching for a tomato somewhere other than Safeway. We do have other varieties here in Australia if you're willing to look for them. Perhaps grow some yourself, then you could include the flowers and other anatomical bits that Safeway hides from you. —Pengo 09:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Support either artistic considerations are far more important for commons QI than for Wikipedia FPs. A big part of the criteria is how useful it is 'encyclopedically'. And this surely is. Simple, but you expect these kind of images from a quality encyclopedia. Borisblue 20:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support original image. Encyclopedic value and technically sound. If we can have a similar FP on a Walnut, I don't see why tomatoes are out. If someone can make a picture that also includes the previously mentioned Australian tomato varieties, I'd support that. - Mgm|(talk) 12:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support original image. Note how the image on the left shows very clearly the texture of the tomato. --HappyCamper 00:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not Promoted Image:Bright red tomato and cross section02.jpg The Sunshine Man 15:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • My take on this is that there are a total of (factoring weak opposes and weak supports as 0.5) 15 supports and 6.5 opposes, and of those opposes, my gut feeling is that the supports had better justification than the opposes. For example, if I were closing this nomination I would take into consideration that User:Makemi's justification for opposition was that it didn't look ripe and appetising like she is apparently used to seeing in New Jersey. While this is subjective, very few others shared this opinion and Fir0002's counter-argument was valid. My personal gut feeling is that it doesn't have the be the most succulent and juicy tomato, it just has to be well presented and representative photo of a typical tomato. Regardless, this nomination received more than a 2/3 majority. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 13:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it should just be promoted. It's run its time on the FP page already, there's a consensus to promote, and it's been improperly closed by someone who apparently doesn't fully understand how FP nominations work. There's nothing to stop someone overturning an improper closure; I'd do it myself but I don't have time at the moment... where's KFP when you need him? :-) --YFB ¿ 18:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Promoted Image:Bright red tomato and cross section02.jpg

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