Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Martin Bucer/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:32, 12 May 2009 [1].

Martin Bucer

Nominator(s): RelHistBuff (talk) 05:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it satisfies the criteria. RelHistBuff (talk) 05:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. For transparency's sake, I should first declare that I have copyedited this article intensively since the last FAC, but I have added very little content. In my opinion, RelHistBuff has produced an outstandingly thorough article here, which will be gold dust to anyone who wants to find out about Bucer on the internet. He has carefully referenced all the information, which, as far as I can see from checking a lot of it in Greschat and other sources, is accurate and judiciously weighted. Since the last FAC, RelHistBuff has improved the article in response to reviews on the talk page, and he has added a context section and a map showing the main cities Bucer visited. I feel sure the article can make it this time, and I believe it deserves to. qp10qp (talk) 15:24, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and tech review completed in first FAC; image review needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:48, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've just looked through them and made some adjustments. All images are in order, except for two problems:

File:LutherZwingli.JPG. This one is just sourced to other images, and the trail of the Luther half does not lead back to a source. This is a small problem, since this image is readily available in books and online and if another copy were uploaded, sourced, and then grafted in as the left half of this image, that would solve it.

File:Hermann von Wied (detail).jpg. This had a frame, which I've now trimmed off (annoyingly, the frame was an awkward shape). It doesn't have a source, so I've dropped the uploader a request to add where he/she scanned it from. Can't be sure of getting a response, though. Unlike the Luther, this is not an image with a ready alternative.

Should I remove my support for the moment because of these two problems? I don't think so, because I cannot imagine any circumstances under which they would not be public domain. The first is easily solved, and if the second cannot be, it may just have to go. Hermann's no great looker, anyway.qp10qp (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The von Wied can probably go. I have tried looking for another image of the same picture, but no luck. I will see if I can make another Luther/Zwingli pairing with a properly sourced Luther image. --RelHistBuff (talk) 16:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the von Wied picture and remade another Luther-Zwingli image using a Luther image with the proper source info. --RelHistBuff (talk) 08:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All images fine now. What a shame about the von Wied, which slotted in so nicely there. No reply from the uploader yet. qp10qp (talk) 13:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I exhaustively reviewed the article on the talk page after its first FAC, and almost all of my concerns have been addressed. The few that I might still quibble over aren't enough to hold back my support. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Pitt (talk) 05:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, well written, balanced.--Ioannes Pragensis (talk) 12:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I am concerned that there is no "Theology" and/or "Writings" section. Both the John Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli articles have a "Theology" section. Such a section helps the reader intensely focus on the theology of the reformer and, often, his writings. It is a little difficult within the current structure of the article to remember, as one is reading, both the narrative of the life of Bucer and his theological views. A separate section can also add a bit more detail on Bucer's thought. The following kind of statements could be give more detail in such a section: "The De Regno Christi (On the Kingdom of Christ) was the culmination of Bucer's many years of experience, a summary of his thought and theology that he described as his legacy. In it he urged Edward to take control of the reform of the church, and proposed that Parliament introduce fourteen laws of reform, covering both ecclesiastical and civil matters. He made proposals on religious instruction, church offices, and matrimonial law, and advised that evangelists should preach the gospel to the people. His ideal society was distinctively authoritarian, with a strong emphasis on Christian discipline." - What kinds of proposals did Bucer make exactly? What kind of religious instruction did he recommend? Etc. I think a section summarizing his theological views would help the reader understand Bucer's ideas. Awadewit (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think Bucer is a different case. My impression is that his theology is derivative of Luther and Zwingli and contained nothing seminal. I tried hard, for example, to find what distingushed his view of the Eucharist from that of Zwingli, but the difference seems to rest in some vague view that the precise nature of the bread and wine isn't crucial anyway, because God will know who is faithful (supremely wise, actually). This seems typical of Bucer, in that his role was political rather than seminally doctrinaire. What could be added, I suppose, is a more detailed account of Bucer's advice on the organisation of the church in Strasbourg and in England. I think a "Writing" or a "Theology" section would be a mistake, given that the general and biographical books on Bucer don't have them, and that any additions on these matters should be slotted into the narrative where they had a political effect, since Bucer's intention in writing them was political and organisational. Perhaps some more could be said about the ideas he was recycling, I suppose. qp10qp (talk) 15:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just got an edit conflict with Qp10qp. As in the Calvin and Zwingli articles, I did consider a Theology section (I even mentioned this in the Bucer talk page). However, when I started to look up resources, I found them to be somewhat scattershot. As you can see in the references, there are sources on marriage, Christian discipline, patristical influence on his eucharistic thought, etc., but nothing that covers his theology overall. The problem is that Buceran studies is in its infancy relative to studies in Calvin, Luther, and even Zwingli. Modern annotated compendia of his works (which started in the 60s) are being released but are not yet complete (Deutsche Schriften, Opera Latina, and correspondences). I thought of making a couple of paragraph summaries on two subjects on which I have books (marriage and patristical influence), but then I thought this would give undue weight on those subjects. --RelHistBuff (talk) 15:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to expand a bit on Bucer's ideas throughout the article, then? I found many of the statements (such as the one I quoted above) to be frustratingly vague. Awadewit (talk) 16:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awadewit, you are a very intelligent person who makes very intelligent comments that I respect. However, further expansion will not make this article better. It is already almost too heavy on the theology side and a bit light on the actual person of Bucer side. I considered opposing because it might be too theological but I read it again and decided that the article needed what it had in order to tell the story of the man. The article is a bio, not a theo and making more of a theo will not make it a better bio. NancyHeise ^talk 18:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Understanding Bucer's views on theology are crucial to understanding his role as a Protestant reformer. Currently, the article is a bit too vague on some of these points. See the examples that Qp10qp has placed on the talk page, for example. Awadewit (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the article talk page, I've added a list of spots where something could possibly be added on theology. I think if it was done subtly, it could enhance the article unobtrusively. It's up to RelHistBuff. qp10qp (talk) 18:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You picked out just the sorts of places in the article that I thought needed more information or clarification. I've added little notes at the talk page. Awadewit (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will see what I can do with the ones you noted. Just in case someone suggests to gather up the additional bits and put them in a separate Theology section, I just wanted to say that Bucer's theology evolved over time. So something about Bucer's thoughts while he was in Wissembourg in 1523 may not apply when he was in Cambridge in 1550. So it would be best to keep the bits in context. --RelHistBuff (talk) 07:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikilink to daughter articles is enough I think but whatever you decide is OK with me as long as the page isnt turned into a Theo that obscures the bio. Otherwise the page name should be "Theology and Biography of Martin Bucer". NancyHeise ^talk 22:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) I have tried to address each of the points and I hope it is enough to convince you to support. Some of them will reveal how frustratingly difficult it is to pin down Bucer's theology. In fact, Luther and Zwingli learned about this first hand! Calvin's theology is a lot easier to write about. --RelHistBuff (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I've read the additions and I think they are very helpful - they put his ideas in context very well. The ending summary is particularly effective. Thank you for all of your hard work on this! I am now supporting as I believe the article to be well-researched, comprehensive, and well-written. Awadewit (talk) 13:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - my concerns and comments from the last FAC have been incorporated into the article. Regarding Awadewit's comments above: I think they are intelligent comments but I don't think they would make the article better. Bucer's theology is intertwined with others as revealed in modern scholarship about him. Per FA criteria, the article should reflect modern scholarship - which it does. NancyHeise ^talk 16:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. I think adding details of theology in a largely biographical article might even make it more difficult to understand, certainly more difficult to read. But there may be a plus side: adding the details might trigger a reader's curiosity and read more on theology. --RelHistBuff (talk) 10:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Since my concerns at the last FAC have now been dealt with, I withdraw my oppose made at that FAC. I'll leave the decision on whether to actively support until any major changes as a result of other objections have been made. Xandar 11:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Very nice. Dincher 01:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.