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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 13:23, 28 March 2014 [1].

Jack Parsons (rocket engineer)

[edit]
Nominator(s): User:JJARichardson and Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a prominent American rocket scientist and occultist. A co-founder of both the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and the Aerojet Engineering Corporation, he was also a prominent devotee of English occultist Aleister Crowley, being a follower of the Crowleyan religion of Thelema and a prominent figure in the Californian Ordo Templi Orientis. He died in a mysterious explosion when only 37 years old. This article has recently been awarded GA status, and we are now hoping to push it that bit further, and get it to FAC, in the hope that it can be presented as Wikipedia article of the day for Parsons' centenary: October 2, 2014. Any feedback would be gratefully appreciated. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Several captions need editing for grammar. Also, when using a direction like "clockwise" to identify things in an image, be sure to specify a starting point
  • File:P1-RocketBoys.jpg: source link is dead; same with File:Navaho_missile.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:33, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. I have have replaced the "Rocket Boys" image source with a working NASA link, edited the caption, and replaced the Navaho missile photo with a more striking launching photo. JJARichardson (talk) 00:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Update. Along with resolving the image and link problems, I have corrected some grammatical errors and expanded the detail of the article. JJARichardson (talk) 19:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Update. I have since expanded the article with additional detail. Any feedback? JJARichardson (talk) 18:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco 1492

  • had been having extramarital sex with a prostitute; - Only one prostitute? "Had been having" suggests it was an ongoing thing.
It was a number of occasions according to Pendle. I have included this detail. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:HPR-Flight.jpg is completely unrelated to Parsons and appears to me to be merely decorative. He did not build this rocket, after all.
Agreed. I deleted the image. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was so scared by the event that he ceased such activities for a number of years. - why was he scared?
He thought that the Devil really was conjured up! Added this detail. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, are we really sure that the sources state that he really believed that he conjured the Devil ? I was under the impression that he was simply scared by the spooky atmosphere of the rite ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's kind of the same thing when you're a kid with an imagination. I've reworded the sentence. JJARichardson (talk) 20:43, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • After graduating from high school - from where?
Washington Junior High. Added this detail. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
From what I understand he went straight from junior high into University School, which essentially functioned as a prep school for privileged kids like Parsons. JJARichardson (talk) 20:49, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bit about Parsons' father comes out of nowhere, really disturbs the flow
Agreed. I have cut down this section, but it can be deleted outright if needs be. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although some Caltech scientists continued to deride them for their work on rocketry, a field still stigmatized by its association with science fiction, they became well known on campus, earning the moniker of the "Suicide Squad" for the dangerous nature of some of their experiments, also attracting attention from the local press. - two ideas are not related enough to be in one sentence
Agreed. I have deleted the first part of the sentence as the ridicule is already noted elsewhere. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I will attempt to address any other issues. JJARichardson (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, RL came up. Some more comments:
  • hand-to-mouth - a bit familiar for an encyclopedia
  • magical retirement - what?
  • Although Parsons and Sara had always had an open relationship, she became enamored with Hubbard, causing Parsons intense jealousy. - Always? Don't think this word is warranted. They were only together for a couple years at this point.
  • Although Crowley warned him of such an endeavor, Parsons was committed, and retreated to the desert, where he came to believe that a preternatural entity spoke to him, to provide him with Liber 49, which he believed to represent a fourth part of The Book of the Law, the primary sacred text of Thelema, as well as part of a new sacred text he called the Book of Babalon. - Sentence is a bit too long. I'd split it
  • Are the addresses really necessary?
  • You've mentioned the company Hughes above. Why is the link only showing up in #Death
  • Changed to "operate informally".
  • Changed sentence to "In May, Smith and Helen left for a two-room cabin in Rainbow Valley with Kwan".
  • Changed to "Although Parsons and Sara were in an open relationship..."
  • Changed to "Although Crowley warned him of such an endeavor, Parsons was committed and retreated to the desert. He believed that a preternatural entity spoke to him there and provided him with Liber 49..."
  • I have deleted most of the addresses, but inclusion of 1003, Orange Grove references are necessary for sentence flow.
  • Sorry, I'm a bit confused by this? The first reference to the Hughes Aircraft company is linked, the second not.
  • Changed to "Parsons often hunted..."
  • Deleted. I originally thought it was illustrative, but I guess it's superfluous. (Another issue is that the looped central design was devised by Crowley rather than being that generally used).
  • Delinked.
  • Changed to "In 1999, Feral House published the biography Sex and Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons; author John Carter expressed the opinion that..."
  • Delinked, as links are already provided earlier in article.
  • As Parsons is an esoteric subject, and the play and graphic novel have a reasonable amount of publicity, I personally think it's worth keeping the references to them. I'm open to other opinions though.

JJARichardson (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Re: Crater: My point was not that it should be delinked (rather, by all means link it), but that names of geographical features generally don't get put in between quotation marks ("Parsons"). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't delink...more like dequoted. Just a typo. JJARichardson (talk) 14:28, 3 March 2014 (UTC)Ẽ[reply]
Very much appreciated. :) JJARichardson (talk) 16:51, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Victoriaearle

[edit]

This is really a fascinating biography and I read straight through (probably thanks to Crisco's review above!) I never knew any of this, though I know about JPL, so thanks for the work here. I made a few edits as I was reading but if you disagree with anything it's fine to revert. A few comments:

1934-1938
  • Date of father's death? Why was he at St. Elizabeths? The second isn't really necessary, but I'm curious.
He suffered a near-fatal heart attack, which resulted in a mental breakdown causing severe clinical depression. I did document this specifically, but the paragraph was viewed as too long and awkward admidst the text so was cut down. JJARichardson (talk) 18:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd not read the comments earlier but have now. I do think that mentioning the date of death might be useful, but up to you. Victoria (tk) 00:55, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is still a little bothersome - it gives quite a lot of information about Marvel (remarriage, etc). and yet says the meeting had little impact and ends with the comment about St. Elizabeths. I don't know how, but this needs some more tweaking. Victoria (tk) 16:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1939-1942
  • "On August 21, 1941, Navy Captain Homer J. Boushey, Jr. piloted the JATO-equipped Ercoupe at the March Fields Air Corps Base in Moreno Valley; watched by such figures as Clark Millikan and William F. Durand, it proved a success and reduced takeoff distance by 30%, although one of the JATOs partially exploded and damaged the fuselage in the plane's tail.[54]" > feels like this sentence should have a full stop (period) in front of "it".
  • delink epiphany?
1942-1944
  • "With the U.S. having joined the Second World War," > I think this can be phrased better.
  • "Andrew G. Haley replaced von Kármán as Aerojet chairman and imposed payroll cuts instead of reducing JATO output.[58][59]" > might need an explanation for the cuts. Weren't they earning money?
They were earning money, but increasing salaries would have provided less money for output. JJARichardson (talk) 18:19, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense but what piqued my interest is why they'd cut salaries. Weren't they mostly government funded? Victoria (tk) 00:55, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The government funds were limited to an extent. JJARichardson (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can this be spun out more? Victoria (tk) 16:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

*delink abortion?

1945-1946
  • delink squall?
"Epiphany", "squall" and "abortion" all delinked. JJARichardson (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1946-1952
  • Link USC?
Would probably be overlinking as the university is noted as USC earlier on. JJARichardson (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As the Red Scare intensified, Parsons decided to migrate to Israel to pursue Rosenfeld's offer, but an alerted Hughes secretary Parsons had asked to type up a portfolio of technical documents reported him to the FBI, accusing Parsons of espionage and attempted theft of company documents on the basis of some of the reports that he had sought to submit to the Technion Society. Parsons denied the allegations, insisting peaceful intentions in the former and error of judgement in the latter." > I think this sentence would be better broken up.
Done. "Parsons decided to migrate to Israel to pursue Rosenfeld's offer, but an alerted Hughes secretary Parsons had asked to type up a portfolio of technical documents reported him to the FBI. She accused Parsons of espionage..." JJARichardson (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
General
  • Try to weed out constructions like "due to" and "being" preceding a verb.
  • I think I saw some inconsistency in comma usage, but needs someone better than I am with commas to advise
  • Check for dupelinks, I think I noted a few as I was reading
I assume that means duplicates? I've noticed it myself and will sort it out. JJARichardson (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sources
  • My largest concern here is sourcing. There seems to be a large reliance on a few biographies and I'm curious whether other sources have been consulted that might have different information or points-of-view.

That's all. Nice work. Victoria (tk) 17:26, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Parsons is an esoteric subject; there really isn't much biography of him, and scientific documentation of his work is threadbare. I'm pretty sure that the books cited in the article are the only ones available (I have only been able to find the Carter and Pendle works for purchase myself). Midnightblueowl deserves credit for doing as much as possible with what we have. JJARichardson (talk) 18:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There might be something in the LA Times - maybe an obituary or something to use. My sense is that Parsons the rocket fuel scientist gets a little lost in Parsons the occultist and I think a small amount of tweaking with sources can avoid that from happening. Anyway, unfortunately I won't be able to continue here (a RL interruption) but good luck. Oh, one more thing before I forget, did Arroyo Seco become the site where JPL was built? If so, I think that might be worth mentioning. Victoria (tk) 00:55, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I added a mention that their desert workplace became the JPL site. JJARichardson (talk) 23:39, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks. Victoria (tk) 16:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Update -- In the "Legacy and influence" section I have incorporated some remarks by Pendle, which I hope effectively merges together Parsons' occult and scientific identities. JJARichardson (talk) 22:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is my concern: it's an 8000 plus word article and is using only eight sources. Of those eight, two come from Three Essays on Freedom and the focus of six of the source is on the occult. There are a couple of inline sources which are helpful, most notably the JPL website. But my fear is that without a full search for more sources the focus of the article is skewed. I found this mention of Parsons in a history of JPL, which can be used, as can the LA Times article linked in the further reading. I also found this which might be helpful, this info from Caltech, and apparently more at Caltech. My sense is that with some searching, more sources can be found, and more sources should be used. Surely the LA Times wrote an obituary and would have other coverage? And the article mentions news articles that were written about him. It's tempting to lean on only a few sources, such as Pendle, particularly when that's what's at hand, but without a full and comprehensive search there's no way of knowing what else will be found. For instance the LA Times article linked in the further reading mentions the importance of the trial he testified at when still quite young (sorry, can't remember the name of the defendant) and hints that perhaps his death was motivated by revenge. All these angles should be weighed and if necessary added, and sources swapped out where ever possible. I'm not at all familiar with this story or this material, and truly I thought it was a fascinating read. But the dearth of sourcing is a concern for me in terms of FA quality. It's not enough to oppose, but on the other hand I can't support yet. Sorry, btw, for the absence. I'll keep this on my watch and see how you do with it. Victoria (tk) 16:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I really appreciate you finding those references. I have incorporated Landis' article into the text and will see what I can do with the other links you've provided soon. I have tried to find an official link Parsons' LA Times obituary, but to no avail. I can incorporate references to it from one of the biographies though. JJARichardson (talk) 19:52, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have also incorporated the references from Keane and Conway, and have consulted User:Midnightblueowl on citing the others appropriately. JJARichardson (talk) 19:30, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have incorporated Rasmussen and Westwick as references. JJARichardson (talk) 20:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final comment - you're welcome for the sources but I'd like to emphasize that I found them in a fairly quick search that lasted about 30 minutes or so. I have not been able to find an LA Times obit either, nor do I think it should be taking from the biographies. Instead I believe the editorial point of view from the LA Times would be helpful, and I strongly believe more sources are available given a longer search. As it is, I think as it is now, this fails the criteria 1 b and c. I have noticed the editing here, but this FAC has been open a long time, and that can't be comfortable. Furthermore, this page was brought to FAC a day after passing GA and imo comprehensiveness is one of the most important differences between GA and FA. My suggestion would be to allow this to be archived, spend adequate time out of the glare of the FAC to make the necessary fixes and to find more sources and then re-submit. It's a fine piece, but the lack of sourcing is a concern in my view. Victoria (tk) 22:00, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Update I have resolved the issue regarding Marvel's military career/second son and depression by separating them into the early life and personal life sections. And I respect the above comments. JJARichardson (talk) 18:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- I've stopped by this page a couple of times in the last few weeks, hoping that it would attract more commentary but I'm afraid that with only two in-depth reviews after two months, the most recent still equivocal about promotion, it's time to archive. Also, just scanning the prose, there are some overused phrases, e.g. "a number of" (try "several" or "many", as appropriate). Per FAC instructions, pls refrain from re-nominating for a minimum two weeks, taking the time to further address Victoria's concerns, and perhaps having someone else scan the prose. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I take the above comments into account and hope they will be resolved in the coming months (I'll contribute to doing this, of course). I should note in the meantime that I've dealt with the "a number of" issue. JJARichardson (talk) 21:06, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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