Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Saint-Sylvestre coup d’état
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:37, 13 June 2008 [1].
This article details a coup d’état staged by Jean-Bedel Bokassa against the government of David Dacko. Bokassa became a ruthless dictator, just like Idi Amin. Dacko regained power 13 years later, but was again overthrown in another coup. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 02:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
SupportIt reads like a well-written story. I couldn't find any major issues.
Oppose for now. I found a few issues.
Switching to Comments for now because I haven't given another look yet.
- "MEDAC became quite popular and was even approved by Etinne Ngounio, the Dacko-appointed president of MESAN.[9] The party even received significant support in by-elections on September 20.[10]" — "even [...] even" I would suggest taking out the evens and rewording these.
- "He would frequently appear in public with all his military decorations on his chest and in ceremonies" → "He would frequently appear in public and in ceremonies with all his military decorations on his chest"
- Sorry about that. It was supposed to say: " He would frequently appear in public with all his military decorations on his chest, and in ceremonies he would often try to sit right next to President Dacko to hint at his importance in the government." Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 00:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gary King (talk) 06:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - This is very good, but the prose still needs work. At the moment, it fails criteria 1a for "brilliant" prose. I found traces of passive voice throughout, and some choppy sentences. I recommend a full copyedit by an editor new to the text. Please see both Peer review/volunteers and LOCE/Members for lists of people who can help. Do not hesitate to contact a few people on their Talk pages!. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 11:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I contacted a few people. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like you've contacted people who are currently busy. Can you contact some others? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 17:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Biruitorul (who I worked with on Barthelemy Boganda) said he would look at the article in the next day or two. Scartol said he could copyedit in a week. There's no rush for the copyediting, is there? FACs almost always run for more than a week. In any case, I'll contact some other people. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Understood. :-) — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 19:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Biruitorul (who I worked with on Barthelemy Boganda) said he would look at the article in the next day or two. Scartol said he could copyedit in a week. There's no rush for the copyediting, is there? FACs almost always run for more than a week. In any case, I'll contact some other people. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like you've contacted people who are currently busy. Can you contact some others? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 17:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I contacted a few people. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker (although you might want to put in that a fee is required to access the JSTOR article). Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I read it through, made some small fixes for grammar/readability, and I believe all the criteria are met. Well-done treatment of a little-known but important episode that I am sure readers will find a gripping account. Biruitorul Talk 23:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment A very good work even if I feel the lead could have a slight trimming. I have more serious objections regarding the second part of the "Aftermath" section, i.e. the "Banza and Dacko" subsection: differently from the rest of the aftermath section this part has only weak connections with the coup events.--Aldux (talk) 01:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe this section is appropriate because it discusses the fate of the two other main figures of the coup, Dacko and Banza. What would you suggest I do with this section? Trim it? Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, in my view that would be the right way to proceed. And a last issue: maybe the article should be renamed; it seems to be quite largely known as the Coup d'état of Saint Sylvestre. Kalck in his Historical Dictionary of the Central African Republic reserves a seperate entry for the coup with the title "SAINT-SYLVESTRE, COUP D'ETAT OF". See also page 28: "Originator of the coup d'etat called the Saint-Sylvestre coup" (in French, by the same authour, "modifiée par le coup d'État de 1966, dit "coup d'État de la Saint-Sylvestre" [La République Centrafricaine, p. 29, 1971]). Also Titley calls the coup repeatedly either "coup of Saint-Sylvestre" or "Saint-Sylvestre coup". This is also the name given by other writers: Loubat, L'ogre de Berengo: "Bokassa m'a dit", Biarnes Si tu vois le margouillat: souvenirs d'Afrique, Cornevin, Histoire de l'Afrique contemporaine, and others.--Aldux (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That was the title I was planning on using at first. However, it seemed misleading since the most of the coup occurred on New Year's Day. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's true the coup's execution continued on the following day, but shouldn't we follow in wikipedia the best known name? In the lead's article we can make it clear that the coup took place in 2 days, but we shouldn't attempt to "correct" the sources, because we dislike or feel wrong the way they have called it: especially when, like in this case, it would seem this name is a well estabilished tradition.--Aldux (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see your point. I have moved the article to a more appropriate title. I've also made a note regarding the name of the coup. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Nishkid, and as for the FAC, I support, because despite I feel the second part of the "aftermath" section would be OK with some trimming, I feel this article is already worthy of being a FA. And my compliments for the great work you're doing on African-related articles!--Aldux (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see your point. I have moved the article to a more appropriate title. I've also made a note regarding the name of the coup. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's true the coup's execution continued on the following day, but shouldn't we follow in wikipedia the best known name? In the lead's article we can make it clear that the coup took place in 2 days, but we shouldn't attempt to "correct" the sources, because we dislike or feel wrong the way they have called it: especially when, like in this case, it would seem this name is a well estabilished tradition.--Aldux (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That was the title I was planning on using at first. However, it seemed misleading since the most of the coup occurred on New Year's Day. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, in my view that would be the right way to proceed. And a last issue: maybe the article should be renamed; it seems to be quite largely known as the Coup d'état of Saint Sylvestre. Kalck in his Historical Dictionary of the Central African Republic reserves a seperate entry for the coup with the title "SAINT-SYLVESTRE, COUP D'ETAT OF". See also page 28: "Originator of the coup d'etat called the Saint-Sylvestre coup" (in French, by the same authour, "modifiée par le coup d'État de 1966, dit "coup d'État de la Saint-Sylvestre" [La République Centrafricaine, p. 29, 1971]). Also Titley calls the coup repeatedly either "coup of Saint-Sylvestre" or "Saint-Sylvestre coup". This is also the name given by other writers: Loubat, L'ogre de Berengo: "Bokassa m'a dit", Biarnes Si tu vois le margouillat: souvenirs d'Afrique, Cornevin, Histoire de l'Afrique contemporaine, and others.--Aldux (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe this section is appropriate because it discusses the fate of the two other main figures of the coup, Dacko and Banza. What would you suggest I do with this section? Trim it? Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Ruhrfisch I now see my copyedits have made me the second contributor in terms of number of edits. If it is allowed, I will Support as the issues I raised have been addressed satisfactorily, I feel the prose now meets 1A and the article meets all the other criteria as well. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As requested I did a copyedit on this article and hope that it now meets 1A (please revert if I have made or introduced errors or made things worse). I have some comments / questions based on my reading of the article.
- In the first paragraph of the Background section, it says ... on December 1, 1958, Boganda declared the establishment of the [autonomous?] Central African Republic (CAR), [with full independence to follow soon?]. Then at the end of this same paragraph it says Slightly more than one year later [i.e. after March 29, 1959], Boganda's dream was realized when the Central African Republic (CAR) attained formal independence from France.[4] This has to be clarified as it sounds like the CAR was set up twice - I added a suggested word and phrase in [square brackets], is that what is meant?
- Yes, this is what I meant. The CAR was initially a territorial autonomy in the French Community until it obtained full independence. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In this quote, shouldn't "Colonel" be capitalized anyway? "[c]olonel Bokassa only wants to collect medals ..." so presumably ""Colonel Bokassa only wants to collect medals "?
- Per WP:HEAD, "Leading up to the coup" should probably not include the word coup (repeats part of the title)
- Changed to "Origins". Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Might want to indicate the PRC was not widely recognized diplomatically at the time for context - see WP:PCR
- Could the then current equivalent in some better known currency be given in: Soon after, the PRC gave the CAR an interest-free loan of one billion CFA francs?
- 50 CFA francs=1 French franc. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In Aftermath, Soon after, other African countries followed suit. makes it sound as if other countries also made pacts to help one another if either was in danger of losing power, when I believe it means they also recognized Bokassa's government diplomatically. Which is it?
- The latter, fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What happened to Bokassa after he was deposed?
- Added the info. I will add refs later. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review, Ruhrfisch. The article now has 46 total edits, six of which were made by you (as part of the FA review). :) Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Glad to be of help, thanks for an interesting article. I think this may be the fewest edits to FAC I have ever seen. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Images look good copyright-wise and all comply with policy. Kelly hi! 01:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.