User talk:4letheia/Palam Kalyanasundaram

{{WikiProject India|class=start|importance=medium|tamilnadu-importance=medium|tamilnadu=yes|chennai=yes|chennai-importance=medium}}

Awards listed in the article

"Sevaiyin sigaram" award at Kapilar festival

Again any comments about the notability of this award which was added to the article today? --4letheia (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

BAPASI award for best librarian

The claim has been added today that the subject was awarded 2012 BAPASI Award for "best librarian" at the 35th Chennai Book Fair. BAPASI is the Book Publishers Association of South India. This section is for discussion of the significance and verification of this award. Can anyone comment on the significance of this organisation - it seems to be a trade association with members who are mainly booksellers in Chennai? --4letheia (talk) 12:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

2009 "Sevai Chemmal" honorary title

The claim has been added today that the subject was awarded in 2009, the "Sevai Chemmal" honorary title felicitated by eminent industrial A. C. Muthiah for outstanding contribution to of socio-economic development of the weaker sections. Can anyone comment of the significance/recognition of this title, and who it is awarded by? --4letheia (talk) 13:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

2011 St John's International Residential School Bishop Rajakumar Memorial Teaching Popularisation Awards

Please do read the two news stories in the references. They throw light on the purpose, nature and intent of these awards. it is self explanatory. For the award ceremony a former Supreme Court Judge S. Mohan was present. thanks Arunram (talk) 19:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment to -4letheia:: It is desirable to retain comments on a talk page for purposes of record and knowing the thread of discussion. Please do not remove or blank out comments. I would suggest we should not use the talk page as a scratch pad. After removing/blanking out your comments my responses don't have a context. Thanks you for your efforts in ascertaining facts for this article regards Arunram (talk) 03:02, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

thanks for your comment, apologies if this has caused any confusion - I have removed a few of my own comments where the discussion has moved on and they were no longer relevant. --4letheia (talk) 19:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Arunram about this; particularly when others have responded to your comments, it is better not to delete or significantly alter them. If you change your mind about something, the usual practice would be to strike out your earlier comments rather than deleting them; otherwise best to leave them alone. --MelanieN (talk) 23:05, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Rotary Lifetime Service Award

This one I believe. It is sourced with a reference showing him getting the award from the Rotary district governor.[1] However, it's not that big a deal. Any Rotary club can present this award to any member of the club.[2] --MelanieN (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

With due respect, please do not belittle the Rotary International organization. They do a lot of work globally and in India. The award was given by the district governor of Rotary International district 3000 in his official capacity as Governor of a rotary district that has 79 clubs. Rotary awards non members for significant contributions to society. Even the link you referred to mentions "with significant achievements in the local/regional community". The key word here is "significant". Arunram (talk) 11:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

May I please ask, why the reference "global significance" when we are looking at establishing fact or notability? At best we are looking for notability as per wikipedia norms. regards Arunram (talk) 11:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Rotary International is certainly a significant organisation. But that does not mean that every award given in the name of Rotary is significant. Based on the link above,[3] any Rotary club can choose to give this award to one of its members. His service to his community may well have been significant in the eyes of his community. But the relevant Wikipedia criterion for awards is "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor." I'm afraid that the Rotary Lifetime Achievement Service Award does not qualify as a well-known and significant honor - nor do any of the other well-cited awards recently added. But they are there in the article, so people discussing at the AfD can take them into account. --MelanieN (talk) 15:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

My humble submission is that we are now focussed on the notability of the person. As per the guidelines if WP:BASIC is satisfied it may be adequate. WP:ANYBIO is clearly specified as additional criteria and I quote "Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included". WP:BASIC states and I quote "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." He is the subject of multiple secondary sources listed with sources from Hindu, Times of India. (We haven't sought tamil news sources). The subject of the article speaks the tamil language. Tamil print media may have more stories. Unfortunately they are not all online and indexed well. It is evident he has received many awards from varied organizations and invited many social functions as a guest of honor, including one a governor of a key state attended (refer what the governor said about him in the news story). If a governor and his protocol team mistook his notability I would be truly petrified. I know you feel that some of these awards are not notable, but they are indeed awards and they are facts. They are independent. Please tell me isn't that our focus? I am another wikipedian focused on fact checks and I started researching the subject of this article after I saw it on Afd. Please consider my submission and points presented. Many thanks Arunram (talk) 19:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment - I've copied it to the notability discussion section 4letheia (talk)

Named President of the Indian Region of the International Refugees Organisation in 2006

I deleted this claim. There was an "International Refugees Organisation" based in London but it was dissolved in 2002.[[4]] There was an International Refugee Organisation, run by the UN, which operated from 1946 to 1952. I can't find anything this 2006 "appointment" could be related to.

A detailed search on new stories regarding this yielded this: Announcement of appointment to IRO Indian region dated Jul-2006 and An event with The Tamilnadu state governor S.S Barnala launching the chapter (13-Aug-2006), please note the picture too.. Not sure if the UN organisation and this one are the same. Couldnt find much online about V.M Kulendran who shared the stage except this. From the hindu story it appears the entity launch was significant enough for the state governor to participate in and speak. Arunram (talk) 11:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Surely at the very least we would need to establish what this IRO organisation actually is in order to determine whether the appointment is notable? --4letheia (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems clear that this IRO is not a UN organisation. This seems to have been the International Refugees Organisation Limited a commercial organisation based in London offering for profit immigration legal advice, note that the director is Mr Vallipuram Culendran (= V M Kulendran?). Although the company was dissolved around 1998, it seems that the business was continued as a sole trader using the name International Refugees Organisation until 2007. I cannot find any registered charity with the same or similar names. --4letheia (talk) 21:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

It is the same source I have referred to above. Thanks Arunram (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the state governor was there to launch the Indian chapter certainly implies that an Indian chapter under this name existed - even if the parent organisation is unclear. I will restore this claim to the article. --MelanieN (talk) 00:02, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Certainly there seems to have been an appointment - I would only caution after a detailed look that it appears however that the organization isn't quite as notable as the name makes it sound. I feel though that to include the claim without some explanation might be misleading to the casual reader, particularly given the confusion with the UN organization of the same name (which isn't the same one).4letheia (talk)

I am fine if we want to qualify the narrative to bring clarity. Please add the verbage as you deem appropriate. Arunram (talk) 03:06, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I have added some wording to the page as suggested, I hope this will be clearer now. Looking carefully at the articles show that none of them actually say whether any activities were carried out in India - do you think some more references can be found to assist this point? --4letheia (talk) 19:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for expanding this. I have tweaked your wording a little, and I deleted the sentence "It is not known whether..." as kind of prejudicial - and partially contradicted by the reference about the governor. --MelanieN (talk) 23:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

This is the website for the International Refugee Organization, but I believe it is obsolete. 4letheia (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The challenge with most NGOs in India is that they are not web savvy (even many government and awards sites) and do not have or update web pages. This is something we should keep in mind in our analysis. In other parts of the world if a governor was launching a chapter or organisation, web sites would perhaps be well done and primed for SEO hits. It is however possible that the "IRO" referred to here is now defunct. Arunram (talk) 02:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Awards which have been deleted from the article

Honoured by meeting Bill Clinton, President of the USA

It is claimed that the subject of this article was one of two people that Bill Clinton was desperate to meet during his visit to India while President of the USA, see for example Probus Newsletter --4letheia (talk) 19:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Here is a long and very detailed description of where Clinton went and who he met on that March 2000 visit to India. No mention of Kalyanasundaram. Sounds like more mythologizing. --MelanieN (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

No news articles found yet to verify the claim. We should not include this claim until we see pictures or an independent reliable news story. It is always very difficult to get a exhaustive list of meetings/people met from reliable sources for such visits. Arunram (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

International Biographical Centre, Cambridge

I have created a new section based on information provided by the Wikipedia article International Biographical Centre, which lists all of the following as awards presented by the IBC: International Man of the Millennium, Outstanding People of the 21st Century, as well as noted below the Noblest of the World. I think its possible these "awards" are all from the IBC therefore and should be considered together. --4letheia (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Good catch, 4letheia - that all of these "awards" are actually for sale from the International Biographical Centre. --MelanieN (talk) 00:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

If true (awards for sale), we should perhaps list this in non reliable sources in the guidelines to disallow further use of this site as a source. Someone from UK can perhaps verify the credibility of this source. Arunram (talk) 03:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it may be a good idea to list this, it is clear that any awards which originate from the International Biographical Centre are not credible or significant awards. --4letheia (talk) 19:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I put a note at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, but I'm not sure if that's the right place to report it. --MelanieN (talk) 23:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The International Biographical Centre sells awards you can find about them here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Biographical_Centre. First sentence about this organisation in the above link is, ” The International Biographical Centre is a publisher owned by Melrose Press Ltd that specializes in producing biographical publications, such as the Dictionary of International Biography and other awards. It is based in Ely, Cambridgeshire in the UK. The Government of Western Australia termed its activities a scam.” Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

• Either Mr Kalyansundaram or his well wishers have paid IBC at least $400 for the award.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Noblest of the world

The International Biographical Centre, Cambridge, has honoured him as `one of the noblest of the world', ...— Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Outstanding people of the 20th Century

...while the United Nations Organisation adjudged him as one of the Outstanding People of the 20th Century— Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Try to search UNO and outstanding people of 20th century. You won’t get any such reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I can find no references that suggest such an award from the UN has ever existed --4letheia (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Man of the millenium award

An American organisation has also selected him as the `Man of the Millennium.'— Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

He was also mentioned as a social worker awarded with the ‘Man of the Millennium' in "The Hindu", the actual authentic website of the Indian daily The Hindu as pointed out by someone below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.65.82.18 (talk) 03:40, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

You wont find any reference to ‘Man of the Millennium’ and Mr kalyansundaram before 2nd November except in 2 report by The Hindu newspaper . One was published in 2003/04/23 and another 2004/08/22. In the first report Mr Kalyan sundaram was quoted "I am a bachelor and my personal needs are meagre. I am able to manage doing odd jobs in a hotel or a laundry. I simply do not wish to own anything. In fact, one of my happiest moments was when, after being chosen as the `Man of the Millennium' by an American organisation, I donated the entire amount of Rs. 30 crores I received towards charity. Everything is, therefore, a state of mind. Finally, what do we take with us when we leave planet earth?". It is more than 5 million USD award and that was not mentioned in any of the websites except the 2 above said reports by The Hindu. He received a sum of Rs 30 crores as part of this award which he distributed entirely for the needy as usual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

This vague claim that he was named "Man of the Millennium" by "an American organisation" or by "the U.S. Government" is rightly deleted. Google search finds no such organisation [5]. The claims that he got it are conflicting and provide no name of the supposed organisation, no year, and most importantly, no independent confirmation that doesn't sound like it is coming from the man himself or his promoters. It's impossible to believe that an award of $5 million would not generate any publicity FROM THE AWARDING GROUP as opposed to just from the supposed recipient. Furthermore, an American group would publicise it as $5 million, not as Rs 30 crores. --MelanieN (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

BTW that "Man of the Millennium" award is cited to The Hindu, but it is actually from the man himself; the article cites it in quotes as from him directly. "In fact, one of my happiest moments was when, after being chosen as the `Man of the Millennium' by an American organisation, I donated the entire amount of Rs. 30 crores I received towards charity."[6] In other words this claim is from a primary source, namely, the subject himself. The Hindu takes no responsibility for the accuracy of the claim, it merely quotes him. And we have not found verification from any independent source, which would certainly be expected for such a large monetary award. --MelanieN (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

As noted above this seems to correspond to the IBC International Man of the Millennium --4letheia (talk) 21:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Short film

A short film on his life has been directed by Subash Kaliyan - how significant is this coverage? Is this short film on major release or in the nature of a student project? --4letheia (talk) 15:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC) I'm unclear about the copyright implications, but for the interests of the discussion, a copy of the film seems to be available on youtube - Short Film - Part 1, Short Film - Part 2, Short Film - Part 3 - it would be particularly interesting if anyone can provide translations of sections which may cast light on the substance of the other claims on this page. --4letheia (talk) 15:58, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Please see the additional links and references/citations I have dug up in my research. The film was featured in the 2012 Norway film festival. Listed links from festival website, where a special screening of the film took place. Also an article from the Hindu covering the festival with mention. I know you next question would be how notable is the Norway Tamil Film Festival. :) Perhaps you can try and search about it. Also the youtube videos you have shared are posted by a Ram Kumar. Could potentially be different from the one made by Subash Kaliyan. In my view all this establishes that the person is well known for the general public and highly regarded. There may be 3-4 assertions that may be sounding difficult to believe (Millenium award, UNO award, etc) as there are no sites to cross check. I am hoping we will have some clarity in a few days as few wikipedians are verifying these assertions. regards Arunram (talk) 18:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Having viewed the film on Youtube it does say it is directed by Subash Kaliyan, so I think reasonable to assume that this youtube film is the film referred to. --4letheia (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing and pointing that the short film clips on youtube are in-fact credited to Subash Kaliyan. I did not catch that when I quickly looked at it. While it may be the same film that went to the festival, it is difficult to confirm unless it is from a reliable or official source. We can only presume. I for one did not even suggest the Bill Clinton meeting (as claimed by some other editor else) be included. Let us keep out any assertions that are not verifiable. My point is that the numerous new stories where he is covered indicate he is well known and widely respected for his work. regards Arunram (talk) 19:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

There are a few questions that spring to mind: Is this film a primary or secondary source - this may be an important question, does the film represent journalistic verification of various claims made therein or is it a documentary interview allowing the subject of the article to tell his story? Does appearance in a short documentary Tamil film shown at a Tamil film festival in Norway represent notability in itself, or does it depend to some extent on the notability of the director/film and whether it achieved widespread recognition? --4letheia (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Per the reference given for the Norway Tamil Film Festival[7], this was not one of the 15 films chosen for the festival by the screening jury. Instead, this film and one other were "selected for a special screening," which sounds to me like an afterthought. I'm afraid this doesn't add much to the subject's notability. --MelanieN (talk) 19:47, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Biographical details

He later joined Kumarkarupa Arts College in Tuticorin as librarian and spent 35 years there, even while doing his social work. He donated the money he got from the sale of his ancestral property to the poor. An amount of Rs. one lakh that Kalyansundaram received as salary arrears, he promptly gave to the district collector to be used for orphans” was translated to Mr.Kalayanasundaram from TamilNadu worked as a Librarian for 30 years. Every month in his 30 year experience(service), he donated his entire salary to help the needy. He worked as a server in a hotel to meet his needs. He donated even his pension amount of about ten lakh rupees to the needy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Concerning adoption as father by Rajinikanth

Moved by his passion to help others, Super Star Rajinikanth adopted him as his father.

This was mentioned in wikipedia page created in the name of Mr Kalyan Sundaram and you won't find it in Super star Rajanikanth’s wikipedia page— Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone find a source? 4letheia (talk)

Social worker?

I question whether "social worker" is a correct description of this man and his work, although I see it is commonly used in sources. I replaced the word "social worker" with "philanthropist", but I see it has been put back. To me a philanthropist is someone who gives money to a cause, such as to help the poor. A social worker is a professional or academic, someone whose JOB it is to help the poor. Maybe it's a translation thing, but I don't think this person's good deeds would cause him to be described as a "social worker" in most English speaking countries. His good deeds consisted of giving money, rather than working professionally in the field of social work. --MelanieN (talk) 05:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from. I think from what I have researched he seems to be both a philanthropist and a social worker. Perhaps his social work is honorary (I am assuming). He gave away and continues to give away most his earnings, which makes him a philanthropist. Through his NGO he is "working" for social causes. In India typically anyone who works for social causes honorary or paid is termed a social worker. "Work" meaning contribution and not necessarily or always remunerative. Hope that clarifies. We will have more clarity by the evening. As we speak we have a wikipedian trying to validate facts by meeting him, on request. Arunram (talk) 07:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I guess it is just a variation in national/regional English usage, then. Wikipedia does allow for such variations. --MelanieN (talk) 15:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought that meeting someone to confirm would count as a primary source and probably original research? if it is necessary to ask the subject of an article then this certainly points to non-notability due to lack of independent sources, and also any answers provided cannot be relied on for the purpose of validating encyclopedia entries surely? 4letheia (talk) 11:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

No one is suggesting going by what the individual says. That was never the intent. However, any independent news paper clippings, the person may have in Tamil / English print media would be a help. Most people keep newspaper clippings of key events where they are mentioned. At the least it may give pointers to dates that one can source news stories from newspaper offline archives. In India we have a struggle to get news sources online prior to 1990. And most tamil newspapers don't have archive searches online that goes way back. Our focus is facts and independently verifiable facts. Arunram (talk) 12:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

We do need to make allowances; Reliable Sources which are not online are still valid. But I am very leery of the idea of going directly to the person for information or validation. That would only be of value if he can provide INDEPENDENT evidence to support the claims he has made about himself. My main problem with this subject - the main reason I am tending toward deletion - is not just that so much of the information about him is clearly wrong or exaggerated. My problem is that these overblown claims are coming directly from his own mouth. Above all, the claim that the "Man of the Millennium" award came from an unspecified American organisation, that it involved a monetary award to him of millions of dollars, and that he donated those millions to charity. We now have a strong suspicion that this "award" was purchased from a semi-scam British organisation. If that is the case, then this claim, for which he himself is the source, is a lie, invented to make him look good - and I would favor deletion even if he does get numerous mentions in newspapers. --MelanieN (talk) 15:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

P.S. If I were Kalyanasundaram, and someone called my attention to this article and this discussion, I would immediately request that the article be deleted from Wikipedia - so as to eliminate all the research and discussion on this talk page. --MelanieN (talk) 15:32, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Social networking campaign

There seems to be a social networking campaign to promote awareness of the subject. The claims made in these social networking posts are discussed above. The origin of the networking posts is unknown. --4letheia (talk) 20:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a link? I put his name into Facebook and found several pretty minimal pages, but I didn't find what you are describing. On one page I did find a mirror of this article - but it is of the article in its current state so it does not include the more controversial "awards". --MelanieN (talk) 23:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Examples: example 1, example 2 (states that he is not widely known in India.), example 3, and example 4 4letheia (talk)

That last one refers to him as a "living fable". Maybe literally a fable - a story to be repeated for its moral lesson - rather than truth. I do see what you mean; the links all quote the same article from The Hindu, and they all repeat the same (clearly untrue) stories about his supposed Man of the Millennium award and so on. --MelanieN (talk) 17:27, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The subject appeared in a film comment about film role --4letheia (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The organisation "Paalam"

I can't find any online evidence of the existence of the organisation Paalam, which he is credited with founding, in a Google search.[8] I found a nonprofit promoting local artists, and a publisher, as well as various businesses. Granted, not all organisations have a website, but is there any independent evidence that this organisation exists? For example, is there a searchable database of nonprofit organisations in India? --MelanieN (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

The following link is the only information that I've seen Ciosa entry for paalam. An important point to note is that this link in itself doesn't confer any sort of registered status - this seems to be a vaguely commercial website where you can pay you join and network with other NGOs, so listing doesn't seem to carry with it any sort of real verification - that's my understanding from looking at the website, but open to contradiction from anyone that has more information --4letheia (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, well, that's at least something. Suggests that the organisation at least exists, and refers to him (giving his name as Mr. O.P. Kalyana Sundaram) as the founder/trustee. --MelanieN (talk) 04:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm finding some references to Anbu Paalam as being an organisation which produces a magazine - see for example and the quote below which comes from news item mentioning the magazine

"ANBU PAALAM" A Tamizh Magazine Edited and published by the great Gandhian and philanthropist Thiru: P.KALYANA SUNDARAM celebrated the magazine's 55th anniversary and 60th Indian Independence Day on 2nd October (Gandhi Jayanthi day) at Kalaivanar Arangam, Chennai. Recognizing the 40 years of service to art & culture, Bharatakalanjali as an institution was awarded the Plaque of honor and gold medal on this special occasion. This award & honor was bestowed on the Dhananjayans' for their service to the art world through the institution they founded in 1968.'

For more particulars and details please contact: Anbu Paalam: Kalyana sundaram 044+24402524 Mobile: 9840218847 Email: anbupaalam@gmail.com --4letheia (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussions concerning the existence of this article

Discussion concerning the previous deletion of this page

It was just Kept at an AfD, but the discussion was closed before a lot of this information came to light. I am getting more and more dubious about a lot of this information, even though The Hindu is normally considered a Reliable Source. I think in some cases they are simply printing what he tells them. Take the claim that he was chosen president of the Indian region of the International Refugee Organisation in 2006; the International Refugee Organisation was dissolved in 2002.[[9]] I have deleted that claim. --MelanieN (talk) 15:24, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

While deletion on grounds of unambiguous copyright infringement might be okay, this deletion did deprive wikipedia the chance to talk about a person who had donated his entire salary to needy people. 117.217.142.157 (talk) 04:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)Gopinathan

I also feel the same. I have not read what this article was and how it was written. But I would like to bring attention of the editors towards this reliable source http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/04/23/stories/2003042300060300.htm --Abhijeet Safai (talk) 05:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I am editing the article. I request other editors to provide notable links on this page if they find any other than cited on the page. Thanks --Abhijeet Safai (talk) 06:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I think the "keep" decision was appropriate, based on the comments made in the deletion discussion at the time. However, doubt has been cast on some of the assertions since the discussion was closed. That's what we are discussing now. --MelanieN (talk) 19:44, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Independence and reliability of sources discussion

There are many inconsistancies in your article which was based on the THE HIndu articles. These article are also exact.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Possrir (talk • contribs) 03:53, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Please note that the so called "reliable source" is www.hindu.com which is a very different site than www.thehindu.com, which is the actual authentic website for the Indian daily "The Hindu" and not the one mentioned below. In my experience, the former website mainly carries questionable (troll) information which are usually subjects of mass mailing and chain mails (this is how I found out about this article). I have searched and not found any such references to the person in this subject on the original The Hindu website. Even if the person might be legitimate, the claims put forward from such a website cannot be trusted for the reasons mentioned. Desmond david (talk) 13:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• It appears that the website is authentic.- hindu.com is older website > thehindu.com is newer version. see this[10] Am I correct?Rayabhari (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I have seen many links from The Hindu and I acknowledge that it is a Reliable Source. Nevertheless, some of the claims published by The Hindu seem simply unbelievable, as noted above. I think it's possible that The Hindu accepted information from the man himself, or his promoters, without doing a fact-check. --MelanieN (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

As noted in other comments on this page, it seems that the The Hindu website concerned is largely the single major source for all of the information on this page. I am concerned that too much weight is being placed on a single source, particularly when the information provided seems to be inconsistent. I think more independent sources are required to substantiate the claims made --4letheia (talk) 19:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Here's an example of something from The Hindu which is plainly untrue: it cites him as the founder of Anbu Paalam.[11] But that can't be true; he founded his organisation Paalam "after he retired," in other words within the last decade or two, but Anbu Paalam was founded in 1953. They gave him credit for the wrong organisation. If they got that wrong, what else are they getting wrong? It appears that The Hindu cannot be accepted as a Reliable Source for every detail about Mr. Kalyanasundaram. --MelanieN (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we should all be worried about verification and reliability of news articles. There surely appears to be some degree confusion for sure from the various articles. From my research it appears that Paalam may be the NGO, and Anbu Palam the monthly publication/newsletter. The founder seems to be known popularly as Palam Kalyanaraman or even called Anbu Paalam Kalyanaraman. The formal name of the organisation and its date of foundation needs to be ascertained. I get a feeling the founder might have run the organization for a few years informally providing under that name earlier prior to registering the entity formally. (of course that is just my inference pending verification). I have reached out to local wikipedians in Chennai to check the facts and revert. Will also be writing to the Hindu's ombudsman (yes they have one). Will keep you all posted. regards Arunram (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

There is a separate section above about his organisation Paalam. But as for Anbu Paalam, it was founded 60 years ago[12] (presumably when he was a child or very young man). Paalam, the organisation where he is officially listed as president/trustee, was founded after his retirement. I think it's possible people have confused the two organisations because of the similarity of names. Or possibly he didn't found Anbu Paalam but is associated with it now. In any case, I'll look forward to whatever you can find out locally - particularly if you have access to an official database of registered NGOs in India or in Tamil Nadu. Thanks for all your interest and contributions to this article! --MelanieN (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Notability discussion

Does it meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines? Bruxism (talk) 06:35, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

given that the Rotary Club award is the only one that can be substantiated in any way, and that there is a single source (The Hindu) for most of the information here, I would respectfully suggest not notable --4letheia

As noted below In my view, the subject is at this time, not notable. Things which may make notable: "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." per WP:BIO or "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field" per WP:BIO, and the over-riding consideration is that "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject" WP:PEOPLE In my opinion the case for showing that there are significant awards is as yet unproven despite a serious attempt to research all of the claims made. Secondly, I think that there is no evidence to support that the subject of the article has made a widely recognized contribution to any particular field. Thirdly, there is as far as I can see, no multiple published secondary sources which are reliable and intellectually independent - there seems to be one significant source at best, The Hindu, the accuracy of which has been cast into doubt in discussion above. On a practical point, the retention of this article lends itself to providing credibility to the claims being disseminated on social networking. --4letheia (talk) 20:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)--4letheia (talk) 20:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)(talk) 20:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

My humble submission is that we are now focussed on the notability of the person. As per the guidelines if WP:BASIC is satisfied it may be adequate. WP:ANYBIO is clearly specified as additional criteria and I quote "Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included". WP:BASIC states and I quote "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." He is the subject of multiple secondary sources listed with sources from Hindu, Times of India. (We haven't sought tamil news sources). The subject of the article speaks the tamil language. Tamil print media may have more stories. Unfortunately they are not all online and indexed well. It is evident he has received many awards from varied organizations and invited many social functions as a guest of honor, including one a governor of a key state attended (refer what the governor said about him in the news story). If a governor and his protocol team mistook his notability I would be truly petrified. I know you feel that some of these awards are not notable, but they are indeed awards and they are facts. They are independent. Please tell me isn't that our focus? I am another wikipedian focused on fact checks and I started researching the subject of this article after I saw it on Afd. Please consider my submission and points presented. Many thanks Arunram (talk) 19:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

What to do with this article

We have done a lot of research on this article, which is presented above in well-organized form. The question is, now what? I see three possibilities

1. Nominate the article for deletion again, based on questions about notability and Reliable Source verification. But the article was only recently nominated for deletion with a result of "keep", and there are citations from what is normally a Reliable Source, even though we doubt some of their information.

2. Keep the article in its current form, with the dubious awards removed, and Watchlist the article to make sure they don't get re-added. I think this is what I would favor.

3. Keep the article, and add the awards along with debunking information, for example "Kalyanasundaram claims to have received the Man of the Millennium award from an unspecified American organisation, but this claim could not be verified." I would oppose this on BLP grounds; we would be in effect calling him a liar in mainspace.

Comments? --MelanieN (talk) 19:27, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

• In my view, the subject is at this time, not notable. Things which may make notable: "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." per WP:BIO or "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field" per WP:BIO, and the over-riding consideration is that "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject" WP:PEOPLE In my opinion the case for showing that there are significant awards is as yet unproven despite a serious attempt to research all of the claims made. Secondly, I think that there is no evidence to support that the subject of the article has made a widely recognized contribution to any particular field. Thirdly, there is as far as I can see, no multiple published secondary sources which are reliable and intellectually independent - there seems to be one significant source at best, The Hindu, the accuracy of which has been cast into doubt in discussion above. On a practical point, the retention of this article lends itself to providing credibility to the claims being disseminated on social networking. --4letheia (talk) 20:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

• I've changed my opinion; I think the article should be deleted. (What pushed me over the edge was the clearly phony claim about meeting with Bill Clinton; every detail of Clinton's trip was highly publicized and remains on the record, and there is no record of any interaction with this man.) IMO the article violates WP:N and WP:V: claims of notable achievements and awards could not be verified, and the things that can be verified do not amount to notability. Now that the unverified claims have been deleted from the article, the verified information that remains - he exists, he founded a non-notable charity, he received an award from his local Rotary organization - does not meet the criterion of notability. As 4letheia said, maintaining an article about him here only feeds the hero-worship and mythologizing that he appears to be subject to in India. --MelanieN (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

• The spread of disinformation and factual incorrectness in this article prompts me not include this. It's difficult to sieve facts from fiction and this article in this state it not a worthy piece of information or there isnt anything remarkable, infact many ordinary people donate money -- Gautam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.166.139.252 (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have nominated it for deletion. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kalyanasundaram (2nd nomination). --MelanieN (talk) 15:37, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

We do have a lot of sourced information added about the person. There are however some pending claims that cant going into articles unless verified. My view is the person is widely respected and regarding with numerous mentions in the media. Arunram (talk) 12:17, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• I have no doubt that this person is notable and the article should remain. I dont have enough time right now to work on it. But I will try to find time shortly. I am aware that I will have to accept the decision of deletion if it happens in between. But I guess that the person is so important that someone will start creating it again. Thanks. --Abhijeet Safai (talk) 08:42, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

A copy of the current research from this page will be kept in the event of the page's deletion to aid any future discussions --4letheia (talk) 12:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Abhijeet. I have taken the liberty of copying your comment onto the discussion page, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kalyanasundaram (2nd nomination), since I think it is relevant. --MelanieN (talk) 00:17, 16 December 2012 (UTC)