User:SportWagon/Sandbox

In motorsport, the racing line is the fastest path a vehicle can take through a specific corner, series of corners, or track. It is an accepted fact that the shortest difference between two points is a straight line. The racing line therefore, is generally characterized by being the largest turn radius possible within the confines of the track and hence would create the most direct route possible. A simple example would be a 90 degree left turn. In most cases (where other factors such as bumps or variations in banking or traction at different places in the turn are negligible), the ideal line would start on the very right hand side of the track upon entering the corner and end at the furthest right point of the track at the corner's exit. These two points of entrance and exit are then connected by an arc which runs smoothly from start to finish with the largest available radius (to maximise cornering speed). This, in nearly all cases involves the arc smoothly intersecting the apex of the corner but not always.

For multiple corners and/or straights, the analysis is somewhat complicated. Because the net goal is to minimize the time spent traversing the course, the driver must sometimes deviate from the typical racing line to set up properly for the next corner or straight. Exit speed onto a straight is one of the most important parts of racing, because an exit speed only slightly lower corresponds to a substantially larger time traversing the straight (the speed reduction is "integrated" across the straight).

Reference was [1]

My thoughts on Racing Line

Old article was even worse than I remember. Best line would be minimum distance unless (as is nearly always the case) that compromises the speed which can be maintained. Straight line is irrelevant unless you want to cheat.--SportWagon (talk) 17:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Racing line

In vehicular racing sports, the ideal line is the route the vehicle must take in order to minimize the time taken to complete the course.

When analyzing a single corner, the optimum line is one that minimizes the time spent in the corner and maximizes the average speed (of the vehicle) through the corner. If one used the path with the smallest radius, that would minimize the distance taken around that corner. However, by fitting a curve with the widest possible radius into the corner, the higher speed which can be maintained more than compensates for the extra distance travelled.. This minimizes the amount of side roll the vehicle experiences. When going in a straight line, no roll is experienced. The closer to a straight line the curve is the less roll will be experienced (compared to making a sharper turn). There will also be less tire wear and friction against the ground, especially in the wheel of the drive train.

All this creates the characteristic path used by drivers of racing vehicles, in which they enter the corner on the outside edge of the course, cut across to touch the inside edge of the course near the middle of the corner, and then move outwards again on the exit of the corner. For example, for a simple 90 degree right turn, where other factors such as bumps or variations in banking or traction at different places in the turn are negligible, they would start on the very left hand side of the track upon entering the corner, cut across to and touch the right hand side of the track somewhere in the middle, and end at the furthest left point of the track at the corner's exit.

The term apex is often used in motorsport, though other racing sports such as skiing and bicycling have a similar concept. In normal English usage, an apex is a high point, either literally or figuratively. In geometry an apex is the highest point of a three-dimensional object, or, in two dimensions, a vertex opposite and distant from a defined base. Use of the term in racing sports is more colloquial, and not necessarily well-defined. Sometimes the term is used to mean the midpoint of the inside roadway edge of a corner. That could be considered to be that apex of a triangle whose base would be a straight line joining the entry and exit of the corner. At other times, the term is used to refer to the point at which some hypothetical racing line will come closest to (and usually touch, or slightly go over) that inside edge. The latter meaning does not really agree with other English use of the terms, and another term, clipping point, perhaps better conveys how moving the point at which the line comes closest to the inside edge of the roadway can affect the shape of the line taken through the corner.

Assuming, as is usually the case, a corner with regular shape and regular smooth boundaries, if the clipping point is at the midpoint of the corner, this will maximize speed through that corner, and the tightest (most curved) part of the line will also occur at that point. However, maximizing speed through the individual corner will not maximize the average speed (minimize the time taken to complete) the whole course. This is because achieving and maintaining higher speeds on the straights can be (and usually is) more important than either minimum or average speed (time) through the corner.

For an early apex (clipping point) you do turn in (initiate gradual turn) earlier, but the sharpest part of the turn occurs later. Conversely, for a late apex (clipping point) you turn in (initiate gradual turn) later, and the sharpest part of the turn occurs earlier (likely very soon after the turn-in).

end my version for now

Also, in drifting one should aim the front of the car towards the apex to initiate a high-angle drift. High-angle drifting keeps the front of the car facing the apex, blocking the opponent from overtaking.

Apex entry and exit

The entry and exit affects the speed into and out of the corner onto the following straight. A late apex is used to maximize the acceleration onto the following straight. In contrast, an early apex maximizes the use of speed from the incoming straight; this is used when approaching a corner where the following straight is a lot shorter than the straight before the corner. Hitting the apex in the middle is a reasonable way to take a corner, keeping a good speed constant into and out of the corner, and maximizing mid-corner minimum speed.

For example, a sector of the track is a 1/4 mile straight leading up to a 90 degree corner that leads onto a 100m straight that then turns into a hairpin that follows onto a long straight. The straight is where the car would have its optimum speed and it is leading into a sharp 90 degree corner, the early apex into the corner would be used to make as much use of the incoming speed as possible. Acceleration onto the following straight would be delayed, reducing top speed on the straight leading to the hairpin. Because the car will be at a lower speed towards the hairpin, minimum braking can be used, with a late apex to allow early acceleration and maximum speed onto the following straight. This would be the quickest way to take this sector of the track, maximizing the speed down the longer straights.

Talk:Racing Line

Diagram

On my browser, the SVG diagram has lost the arrow indicating direction of approach to the corner. (Safari 2.0.4 on Mac OS 10.4.8) St3f 21:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Mine too. It's like the SVG has jumped back in time 7 months, that's bizarre. I've posted the question to Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#SVG problem. --Interiot 22:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The lines do not ease in and out of the straight

I tried to comment this on the image page itself, but I think perhaps that's wrong, so I'll say it here. Consider the light blue line especially. It is an absurd way to come out of the corner. The problem is a straight line was used where instead a gradual curve should have been used. As it is, a kink will result after you should have accelerated. But, instead, a gradual change of direction should have been done from the tangent which was inappropriately extended into the line shown, to a line parallel to the outside edge of the roadway on the exit straight. The same problem exists with the dark blue line, too, in reverse.--SportWagon (talk) 15:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes. And the entire article is entirely rubbish anyway. The discussion of "late" and "early" apexes has its statements backwards. A late apex (clipping-point) allows earlier acceleration. That would be clear from the diagram if the diagram didn't erroneously have straight lines. More exaggeration in the diagram might help, too. Actually, the problem in the diagram arose when you tried to base it around the symmetric entry/exit with a central apex. A late apex will require having the exit line meet the edge of the roadway further to the right than the symmetric or early apex lines will. I might start editing soon, if no-one interested appears soon. I feel currently lacking in references, however. And am not really familiar with tools to produce improved diagrams. All-in-all, I'd be in favour of removing the example. (Appears to be original work, after all).--SportWagon (talk) 18:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"late" and "early" were subsequently fixed (switched).--SportWagon (talk) 18:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Apex entry and exit

Previously, the assertions made in this section were backwards. I fixed that. I find the example difficult-to-follow and unconvincing in its conclusion. It's not clear whether the hairpin is in the same direction as the 90degree corner, or in the opposite direction. If they are both in the same direction, everything probably makes sense except that such a configuration (ending in a long straight) would require a "figure 8" at that point (the final straight would cross the first straight in that case, e.g. via a bridge). If, as seems more likely, the turns are in opposite directions, the advantage of retaining incoming speed versus a desire to "widen" the following hairpin make it even less obvious that a correct solution would use an early apex for the 90degree corner. All-in-all, I'd support removing the example. It does appear to be, after all, original work. An example from a reliable source would be better.--SportWagon (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Source of late/early apex terminology confusion

The apex is often but not always, the geometric center of the turn. Hitting the apex allows the vehicle to take the straightest line and maintain the highest speed through that specific corner. It is also the tightest part of a corner.

Verified with other motoring types, normal usage is to say the "apex" of the driving line ("clipping-point" as you have used) is the point at which that line comes closest, usually touches, and sometimes even runs over, the inside edge of the roadway in the corner. That apex will not be the tightest/slowed part of the driving line; it is not in any sense the apex of the line (trajectory, path) of the vehicle--in fact the clipping-point apex tends to occur opposite to anything a mathematician would call the apex of the line; late apex (clipping point) causes the tightest, minimum speed part of the line to occur earlier, and vice-versa. It's not obvious to me what is meant by saying "It is also the tightest part of a corner".--SportWagon (talk) 14:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, "tightest" here is confusing at best. Recury (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll remove the entire statement when I've convinced myself I can't find a reasonable replacement. On other fronts, I think I've finally determined the relationship to a mathematical apex. An apex is usually a highest vertex, e.g. on pyramid or cone. Or, in two dimensions, one vertex of a triangle is the apex, if you define a "base", and typically the base is considered to be the longest side, that is, the apex is usually considered the vertex of a triangle opposite its longest side. For any corner, you can draw a straight line directly from entry to exit. The inside edge of the roadway should project beyond that. If you pick any point on that curve (i.e. curved roadway edge), you can construct a triangle whose apex will be that point. "The apex" of that corner could be chosen as the triangle with the greatest height, or perhaps the one with the most symmetry. But obviously triangles giving "early" and "late" apexes (apices?) can be chosen instead. Still, this choice of point is only tangentially (somewhat literally) related to the actual line the car will take around the curve.--SportWagon (talk) 20:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It must be something like that. My confusion the other day came from trying to think of the apex as the highest part of the arc of the racing line, which it's not. Recury (talk) 16:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yup. Those of us who like to predict sources of confusion seem to think of that.--SportWagon (talk) 16:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Better definition

An imaginary line around a circuit that provides the quickest lap time. first good one I googled up

The discussion is focused on apexes, but in fact there are lots of other situations to consider, kerbs, grip, corner sequences, weather and so on.

So in a wet weather race, the racing line may well be on the outside of the corner which provides more grip. Similarly, on a straight the racing line may be on one side or other of the track, typically the outer line, where the inner line gets dirty.

It is relevant where there are rules like in F1 where it is understood that the lead driver cannot swerve around, but is only allowed to make one blocking move, but can then move again to adopt the racing line for a corner.

Other points that could be usefully made are that the racing line gets cleaned by the tyres, so will normally generate more grip.

I haven't added this as I haven't come across any good sources that discuss this. Probably needs a book by someone like Martin Brundle or or may be on somewhere like www.itv-f1.com. 92.232.129.103 (talk) 08:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"imaginary" sounds wrong. I guess they mean it's not actually painted on the track, but "imaginary" wrongly suggests it won't have a tangible location. We also need to avoid confusion between the line for a single corner, and the line for an entire track. "around" also sounds wrong when used with "line". It sounds like the line is on the outside of the circuit. Changing "imaginary line" to "route or course" might avoid using the word in its own definition. Of course, then we lose the citation.--SportWagon (talk) 21:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This looks nice

• http://www.driversdomainuk.com/motorsport/racing_line.php

old Racing line article had following (waffly, hand-waving) citation

• http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/05-Cornering.html

That last source touches on the point I am getting at: the racing line is not a line through a corner, it is the optimal path around the track. The subtle difference being that while the major influence is the geometry of the corner, the ultimate lap relies on a complete optimisation of all factors. 92.232.129.103 (talk) 07:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The term is ambiguous. Detailed analysis such as [2] attempts is facilitated by the assumption that the Racing Line through a corner can be analyzed in isolation, yet, to their credit that same source, as you say, touches on the bigger picture. As NPOV digesters, I think the ambiguity should be mentioned, although I think it will still remain NPOV to emphasize that, in real life, not only is it inadequate to consider a single corner in isolation, but that other real-life factors may influence the "Racing Line" at different times. Another factor which doesn't seem to be mentioned at all is the type of vehicle. 125cc motorcycles use a very different line from superbikes, in some corners.--SportWagon (talk) 14:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Personal thoughts to verify. A non-racing-line around a single corner will simply pick a side and stay on it; usually the legal side of the road for the jurisdiction. Determining racing-line for a total course begins with finding fast lines (call it "racing-line") through individual corners, and later applying refinements. (True, with experience, certain combinations will be taken without first breaking-down and refining). But, in any case, the fundamental thing references must prove is that the small amount of extra distance you take by "using all the road" in a corner (as opposed to staying on the inside of the track as much as possible) is outweighed by the higher speed you can maintain. That that is true for vehicles above a certain speed may be obvious to most people, but the proof of it is probably not obvious. (As far as I can tell, the principle is true even for slow vehicles, since the action of turning actually slows all vehicles down). In any case, I think the article should at least mention the concept of racing-line around a single corner, in contrast, as I say to non-racing-line.--SportWagon (talk) 00:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Things to Do

1. Find a drawing tool suitable for producing an improved version of the diagram, or find a better pre-prepared diagram, with suitable copyright provisions. The straight line segments, starting "early apex" and ending "late apex", in the current diagram are incorrect.--SportWagon (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
2. Decide on structure for article, so as to imply necessary source materials for reference, and then see if they can be found. [3] would be good for a "what would one do with a single corner, then refine that into a total circuit" approach. Alternatively, we've got to decide whether there's really enough citable (web-citable?) material to base a NPOV digested article on. We seem to have ideas, but not a lot of citable references.--SportWagon (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Dubious sources of information.

This apparent game documentation occasionally has definitions, at least some of which don't make much sense. It may have been a source of some of the original articles. The glossary does give reasonably good definitions of some colloquial terms. --SportWagon (talk) 15:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• apex http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/definition/index.asp?glossaryid=41
• late apex http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/definition/index.asp?glossaryid=77
• early apex http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/definition/index.asp?glossaryid=156

In general... http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/

I'm not sure if it's the videogame or actual Ford real-life racing.--SportWagon (talk) 15:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

OTOH we could extract something from

• line http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/definition/index.asp?glossaryid=97 --SportWagon (talk) 17:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)