Template talk:Ex Corde Ecclesiae Catholic universities and colleges in the United States

Some Concerns

First, where does this list/template come from? Who is determining which colleges make this list? I see all the schools from The Newman Guide to Choosing a Catholic College are included, but there are a few others included as well. Secondly, why do a few select sources get to determine which colleges are properly following Ex Corde Ecclesiae? In my opinion, the title of the template is possibly POV.

I am suggesting that the template could be renamed, but it still leaves the problem of determining with schools make the list. The only suggestion I have is to rename the template "Schools from the Newman Guide to Choosing a Catholic College." However, I am unfamiliar with wikipedia's criteria for templates such as this, and whether such a template would meet those standards. I think there could be a legitimate case for deletion. Twinkie eater91 (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

No. The schools were self-selected. These are schools whose theologians promised to follow Vatican/papal direction, which BTW, is a theoretical requirement anyway. Newman may have thrown in others, but basically, these schools and theologians are on the side of the pope. As simple as that. The other schools theologians often teach that one should read what the pope has to say, then do whatever seems "right." That is the right of that school to do so and that comprises nearly all the major catholic universities with the sole exception of (ironically) Catholic University! It is also the "right" of other schools to follow the pope. I would think it is also proper to identify those schools as much as one would recognize a literary genre, a football league, or a political movement. I did not force Pres. Obama to join the Democrats. But does that make it wrong that I label him one? Notice that I have not suggested labeling the Pres a "non-Republican" simply because McCain is and Obama is noticeably absent. That would be pov labeling.

The Newman Guide did not "choose" these schools. They did record them. But no more than Voter Registration "chose" the President as a "Democrat." I am not aware of discrepancies in listing. Would you point out one?

The name was limited to those schools supporting the corde.Student7 (talk) 23:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say "the schools were self-selected"? Do you mean that these (and only these) schools issued some sort of statement saying that they will follow Ex Corda Ecclesiae? Or do you mean that these schools were self-selected by you, the creator of this template?

The main concern I have is that this is seems to be a rather narrow list of colleges (determined by what might be a rather arbitrary standard) that are following Ex Corde Ecclesiae. I would contend that there are plenty of other Catholic institutions that accept the magisterium. The title of this template implies that these are the only colleges which follow Ex Corde Ecclesia. I should think that if there were some sort of survey conducted, many schools should like to describe themselves as Ex Corde Ecclesiae.

Somewhat aside, I don't think your Democrat/Republican analogy above is quite accurate. Obama self-identifies as a "Democrat." I am not aware of any such self-identification in this case (except by Ave Maria University). If there is such a self-identification, please let me know and point me to some sources. Otherwise, a more appropriate analogy would be if you were to make a list of "democratic" federal judges based only on their decisions with no personal statement from them. -Twinkie eater91 (talk) 03:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The schools selected themselves by either a) espousing ex corde ecclesaia or b) ignoring it. If the latter, it was not done by accidental omission. It was (and is) the elephant in the living room. The selection or rejection by local theologians were all well-known within the Catholic community. Again, I would be much interested in transcription errors by me, or overlooking schools that support the single Magesterium and were somehow overlooked in the reference. I did not intentionally overlook any.Student7 (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

One college that I found was University of Saint Francis (Indiana) which was listed here among other colleges currently on this list. However, the main thing I wanted to bring up was that implementation of Ex Corde Ecclesiae is not always a black and white matter. I also disagree that all of the colleges not listed here are ignoring the document, even if they have not implemented it perfectly. For example, Father Jenkins of the University of Notre Dame "endorses the principles of Ex corde Ecclesiae" That said, I agree that ND is not completely following Ex corde, at least regards mandatums (mandati?) for theology faculty.

Perhaps the state of higher Catholic education is far worse than I realized. I just wanted to make sure that this list was not limited to a narrow interpretation of Ex Corde. I have been reviewing the USCCB document on implementing Ex Corde Ecclesiae. I think any editors here will agree that implementing these standards constitues a proper definition of an "Ex Corde Ecclesiae college." It seems to me almost unbelievable that only appoximately 10% of the Catholic colleges in the United States (at least that is the figure this list suggests) are following these guidelines. The two most concrete guidelines found in this document which would be easy to judge a university against are 1. the university president must be Catholic and 2. Catholics in theological disciplines must have a mandatum. Adherence to the other standards can be very difficult to accurately determine and can often be adhered to at varying degrees. This is why publications, The Newman Guide in particular[1], have said that judging fidelity to Ex Corde Ecclesiae is an art and not a science. Some schools that might be marginal in some areas might be exemplary in carrying out, for example, their "Commitment to serve others, particularly the poor, underprivileged and vulnerable members of society.[2]" I will, of course, have to do more research into individual Catholic institutions to judge which are abiding by at least those two very concrete guidelines listed above. I hope I shall find many more schools that are candidates for inclusion.

One final note: given the difficulty of determining compliance (it seems difficult to me anyway), are we to take a innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent approach? Is it even possible to find out if the faculty holds mandati, whether they have been informed "at the time of their appointment regarding the Catholic identity, mission and religious practices of the university and encourage them to participate, to the degree possible, in the spiritual life of the university," etc.? -Twinkie eater91 (talk) 02:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

On further thought, is it really the place of Wikipedia to judge whether a school meets these standards all? Are there reliable third-party sources which list "Ex Corde Ecclesiae" colleges as such? Although you maintain that these schools are thoroughly in align with the magisterium and Ex Corde Ecclesiae and other big name colleges are not, are there any sources which assert the same? Remember that Wikipedia has a strict policy against original research. When I think about it, I would be doing OR if, as I suggested above, I looked into colleges and determined for myself whether they are following the USCCB's application of Ex Corde Ecclesiae. -Twinkie eater91 (talk) 03:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The list was taken in its entirety from: Guide. I agree that this has a built-in deficiency of not being able to include or exclude colleges which change. But that is true of most references. Student7 (talk) 12:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

So, I would have no basis myself for including Saint Francis unless a reference can be found that says they are in compliance. And this sort of thing needs to be kept up with here somehow without dropping an unwanted list of repetitive footnotes in each colleges list of footnotes.Student7 (talk) 12:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Solid. I was mainly looking for the source of this list, so thanks for finally providing it. The source is pretty clear on the criteria for inclusion and I agree with a lot of what it is saying. The weakness is that only one group's research and application of Ex Corde Ecclesiae and that others schools may improve or be somehow overlooked. The final point I have is that a school may be sucessful and even exemplary in all other areas but fail in a grey area. For example, a school may not have a Catholic majority on its faculty or board of trustees. This is not a stict requirement, but only required "to the extent possible". Similarly, a school might have co-ed dorms which are not strictly forbidden by any document, but simply may hinder an "environment that is expressive and supportive of a Catholic way of life." I don't know personally of any such close cases, and I will leave someone else to argue for them. I just seems that such a school could be even more in line with Ex Corde Ecclesiae than the ones listed by our conservative source. Anyway, good work and thanks for listening to and talking with me about this. -Twinkie eater91 (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The criterion should not be that they are in fact in compliance with the standards of the document, but that they consider that they are, or else that consider that they ought to be. The choice between those two is difficult. No Catholic can simply ignore an encyclical, but one can decide--rightly or wrongly-- that it is inapplicable to one's particular situation. Or, one can admit it is applicable, but think there are valid reasons for not following it totally. Or, most likely, one accepts it as a goal, and intends to reach it as one can, just as one intends to be as virtuous as one can in more general terms, recognizing that one will never become fully virtuous in this life. The Catholic church, like most organizations that survive a long time, has ways of accommodating diversity with a formally uniform structure. I;'m not sure the distinctions can be recognized by a template. DGG (talk) 01:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)