Talk:Yuan dynasty

Convenient Borders

Don't some of the borders of the Yuan Dynasty on the map at the top seem to be conveniently like today's national borders on the map? (I'm not the only one best at wording)

Soy milk emerged at end of Kublai Kahn empire

Bill Shurtleff is cited in the soy milk article as saying that: "a tofu broth (doufujiang) c. 1365 (was noted) amid the collapse of the Mongol Yuan."

References

Concerning the flags

I vectorized some military flags of the Yuan Dynasty found in old paintings of the Yuan army, but they got deleted due to them lacking scholarly sources, since I cited images of the paintings as sources. Even if there are no scholarly sources, paintings of the military from the Yuan era should be accepted, especially considering that the same standard is shown in many paintings, further legitimizing it. (I also added the naval flag of the Yuan Dynasty cited in CRW flags.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sci Show With Moh (talk • contribs) 13:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Sci Show With Moh, "Flags of the World" is considered an unreliable source; its entry on WP:RSP reads Flags of the World has been written off as an unreliable source in general. Although some of its pages might refer to reliable sources, it is self-published content without editorial oversight, and the hosts "disclaim any responsibility about the veracity and accuracy of the contents of the website.". I have reverted your addition, but you are of course free to re-add if you find a reliable source. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The website sites the origin of the flag as being a flag on display in the Military History Museum of Vietnam, which could be considered a reliable source for a flag as it's a physical relic from a Yuan warship according to the museum. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 21:15, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

A photograph of the flag at the museum would be a reliable source. We are however getting this information through "self-published content without editorial oversight", so it might be untrue/exaggerated/misintepreted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Orthogonal to this, I'm not really sure what |flag= parameters are supposed to capture for this sort of polity. Does it matter whether or not the purported battle standard and purported naval flag are historically accurate? Do they represent the idea of the Yuan dynasty as a state in the way that modern flags are supposed to? According to historical records, the standard of the Great Khan was the nine white tug banners, accepted by scholarly sources, and replicas of which are extant. Would commons:File:Mongolia 9 suldes.png be an appropriate flag icon for the infobox? (Edited to note that I can't tell whether or not I'm asking this question rhetorically)

I can't claim to understand why people make such a big deal of flags, so my opinion might be kinda off base, but I think it is valid to question what any flag would have represented to the Yuan dynasty as compared to what a flag icon in the infobox feels like it should convey. Folly Mox (talk) 22:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Even if this flag was taken from a Yuan warship, what evidence is there to suggest that it represented the entire Yuan nation? I agree with the sentiment behind your comment. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:37, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Good point, as the other person said, the standard of the Mongol Nation was actually the nine white tugs banner/sulde. Could I possibly use that instead? (Also, I'm currently searching for an image of the Yuan Banner cited in CRW flags in some videos of the museum where it's supposedly located.) Sci Show With Moh (talk) 23:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Could I use the flag shown in the Catalan Atlas? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Is it described in reliable modern sources as a flag representing the entirety of the Yuan dynasty? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

For example Sci Show With Moh, this source states outright that such symbols are inauthentically depicted, and suggests that your supposed "Yuan dynasty flag" was actually a Timurid Empire flag. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

That's strange, because the Timurid Empire wasn't even on the Catalan Atlas for it to have its flag inauthentically depicted as the Yuan Dynasty flag. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 12:49, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, can you cite the exact place in the source that says that the Yuan Dynasty in the Catalan Atlas was inauthentically depicted as the Timurid flag? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 12:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

See pp 149–150 in Kadoi 2010 for that discussion, which seems to be describing the flag image you added most recently. She also translates 九斿白纛 as "white standard with nine tails" on p 146, which probably means that Chinese sources have been understandably mistranslating it based on reading 斿 as a counting word instead of using its base meaning of "tail".

Anyway, have a look at this google images search for "Yuan dynasty flag". Notice how the top results are all different? That's pretty suggestive of there not being an accepted flag design for the Yuan dynasty, and a bunch of people guessing based on different sources. Folly Mox (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed that too. In my search for an accurate flag of the Yuan Dynasty I found many different flags from different sources. It seems as if there are many different flags and not a single solid one. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 16:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Although I'm not sure that the Yuan flag that I added to the page was actually inauthentically depicted and was actually a Timurid flag, considering that the Timurid Empire isn't even shown on the catalan atlas. Sci Show With Moh (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes. That's the point. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:11, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

In that case, could I add some of the atributted flags outside of the infobox? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 20:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

If they are attributed in reliable modern academic sources and you place them in related spots, yes. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:39, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, I could probably make an entire page on the attribbuted flags of the Mongol Empire and Yuan dynasty. What do you think? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 01:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

You might be able to find scholarly sources in Raven, which publishes papers on speculative vexillology. Most exercises in speculation tend to be unpublished, so I suspect sourcing may prove difficult. It may be possible, and I don't want to dissuade you from pursuing the topic since you seem very keen on it. Folly Mox (talk) 20:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you think I should make an entire page of the attributed flags of the Mongol Empire and Yuan Dynasty? Sci Show With Moh (talk) 21:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you have enough reliable sources to create a page? If yes, why not? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:05, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

At this point, I am of a "flagless until proven nation" position when it comes to these things: our obsession with flags is so excruciatingly recent, see the boneyard of Austria-Hungary's revision history for the persistent a priori assumption that a polity must have a symbol analogous to a national flag (if it's not a "national flag", it shouldn't be hoisted in the infobox for a sovereign state imo), even if they weren't a nation in a way we would recognize. Remsense留 08:14, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

New map

Old maps A and B

Hello. I was thinking of reworking the main map for this article as presented in the country infobox. The present infobox contains two maps, one of which (A) is awkwardly cropped in the north and follows modern borders to the T at places (as another user pointed out), and another one (B) which contains perhaps too much information for a infobox which I feel would fit better in the middle of the article, possibly under the "Administrative divisions" header. I propose combining the information of both maps into one, which I have already prepared below. Cattette (talk) 07:38, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

What are the sources for the new map? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:27, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I also feel that your new map still contains too much information and is too visually confusing. Removing the provinces/province names would help. It's also not very helpful to have the Song borders. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:30, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Here's a simplified version https://imgur.com/a/sAncf5m

The sources I used were the previous map B as well as Droysen's Historical Atlas from 1886 https://archive.org/details/DroysensHistoricalAtlas1886/Map%2028%20The%20Mongol%20empires%20around%201300.jpg Cattette (talk) 10:33, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely on an 1886 map and an unsourced Commons. I just consulted Atwood's Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire (2004) which also has a map for the Yuan c. 1294. Good news! It is mostly similar to yours. A couple of points of interest: 1) it doesn't have a strict northern border, but leaves the northern limits of Yuan control undefined as Map A currently does (as is much more realistic than an arbitrary "frontier line" somewhere in the steppe) 2) it includes a "disputed with Chagatai" region around Beshbalik in the West 3) I think the replacement "region names" ("Gobi", "Cathay" etc.) are too misleading to be used. Perhaps we could have the previous province boundaries without the names. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:53, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It's hard to work with undefined boundaries while still making the polity-of-interest pop. I tried to accomplish this by removing the bold line across the northern frontier, thoughts? https://i.imgur.com/bLgnsun.png Cattette (talk) 11:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

That works! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Your new map looks extremely excruciating and conflicting to maps made by historians of the Mongol empire – crude and overinaccurate - such as the Lingbei, Yunnan, and Sichuan provinces, the locations of Bianjing and Kunming are incorrect. The Chaghadaid, Jochid, Huleguid, Annam, Champa were outside of the Shing-On-Tai system and so they were never parts of the Yuan Ulus; Khmer was not even in Mongol, nor tributary kingdoms should be considered parts of the Mongol empire by any definitions. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-history-of-the-mongol-empire/empire-of-the-great-khan/41EEE744E9D3545E7111DC25B77C33F2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Genkouinterest (talk • contribs) 01:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Part 2

Old map (lefttop), newly proposed map (rightbottom)

Fazoffic, see to the right the two maps under consideration, at the size they would appear in the infobox. Your preferred image has much less clearly defined territory, with the Delhi Sultanate almost the same colour as the Yuan. In addition, see the issue detailed above of a defined northern border, when no such thing existed. The choice of POIs is extremely odd: four cities in total are marked, three of which are in one disputed territory, and with labels that are quite hard to distinguish. There is also the "U-Tsang Military civilian" in Tibet—if it refers to the U-Tsang Military Commission, which wasn't established until the Ming, it is quite incorrect. Finally (and this, I will admit, is entirely personal preference) the shade of yellow chosen is pretty ghastly.

Can I ask which source you used? On the image page, it says it was based on the old map, which can't be right seeing as they greatly differ. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I used map A and B as above as reference too, but B only a little. Regarding U-Tsang, maybe I will just delete the U-Tsang text. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 22:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Both maps are unsourced and contain details not found in your preferred map. Where did you get the idea, for example, to insert the U-Tsang Commission? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I seem to have confused U-Tsang Ming and U-Tsang Yuan, sorry. Maybe I'll just delete it. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Fazoffic, the maps from Tan Qixiang's The Historical Atlas of China have been digitised if you need some very reputable sources. Volume 7, the Yuan dynasty, is at here. Folly Mox (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

This would be very helpful, Thank you! ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Then, for the color, I will try to make it look more orange, oh and you are wrong if you say it is "yellow". Regarding the disputed cities, I will try to remove two of them and leave only Dokham. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the northern border, didn't you say yourself that the northern border of Yuan is uncertain? That's why I didn't add a thick black line in the north. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on what names the colours representing the Delhi Sultanate and the Yuan Empire should be called, but they do render extremely similarly on my device. MOS:CONTRAST might not specifically apply in the case of user-generated images, but that uppercase shortcut has lots of good links to tools for checking the contrast between colours and for selecting an appropriate palette. Folly Mox (talk) 23:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 and @Folly Mox: I have updated the map. Please check it again. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 23:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I still prefer the original (a key, inclusion of more than two cities, city labels instead of provinces); what problem does your map aim to fix? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The old map does show major watercourses and political boundaries more clearly, although mountain ranges are not indicated. It's also mostly legible even in thumbnail size. I don't have really strong opinions on this, and only showed up because I watchlist this talkpage and had some links I wanted to share. Folly Mox (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox I am sorry, but, besides the map that is directly viewed from the infobox, can the reader also click on the image to see more details? I don't think there is a serious problem with this.

@AirshipJungleman29: I think the label of cities instead of provinces is a bit confusing. Then, I think my map is enough to represent the area of the Great Yuan and is more pleasing to the eye. After all, besides map B, isn't the old map also the main reference for making the map I proposed? ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to be that guy, but we shouldn't be putting effort into making more raster maps. If people are interested, I could help create a vector replacement, Remsense ‥ 论 23:43, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the example on Tang dynasty is really clean and a good model to work on. I appreciate if people think there should be additional detail for the Yuan, which I can accommodate. Remsense ‥ 论 00:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to be that guy

Is "that guy" is ... me?

I think the example on Tang dynasty is really clean and a good model to work on.

I thought so too, however, I suppose some readers might have expected a somewhat more detailed map? After all, every Yuan map design is almost the same, and from the same source too, although there are some differences of opinion about the northern boundary and the disputed territory with Chagatai. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm that guy! The vectorization guy. Remsense ‥ 论 09:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Ohh ... i see. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)