Talk:Yisroel Ber Odesser

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Re: birthdate. Some sources say he was born in 1905, others in 1888. I'm going with 1888 because it is cited on a major biographical Reb Odesser page at http://www.moharan.com/pages_angl/page_rabbi_israel_angl.htm, written by some of his disciples, who should know. Whether or not there was a birth certificate, I don't know -- in those days babies were often born at home and traditional Jews did not always celebrate birthdays. User:rooster613

I'm reverting back to 1905 as the birth date because, in his own words in an autobigraphical story in The Letter from Heaven, he said he was 17 in 1922. Perhaps his disciples want to make him older than he was (not an unknown phenomenon among followers of saints). Or maybe it is based on a typo somewhere. If anybody else can clear this up, please do!

"Anonymous" user:64.61.211.212 is really me, Rooster613. I logged out for lunch, came back to create this page -- and forgot to log back in. user:Rooster613

Saba said that he was with R' Karduner for a total of 5 years until R' Karduner passed away in 1920. This means that Saba met R' Karduner for the first time around 1914-1915 which matches Saba's account of meeting R' Karduner not too long after the beginning of a war in Israel (this was World War I which started in 1914). Both Saba and R' Karduner testified that Saba was an umarried yeshiva bachur living with his parents at the time they first met. All of the above information is found in the book "Sichos Metoch Chayei HaSaba". According to information on another site about R' Odesser (http://www.zissil.com/topics/Rabbi-Yisroel-Dov-Ber-Odesser---The-Saba), Saba was 17 when he first met R' Karduner and he married soon afterwards in 1915. If Saba was 17 in 1914-1915 he was born around 1898. Comment by KalmanC. —Preceding undated comment added 22:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Languages

Re only speaking French and Yiddish. I have a WAV file of Reb Odesser speaking Hebrew, so this may be incorrect. His Hebrew may have been bad, but as a Talmudic scholar his Hebrew would have at last been decent. Moreover, I am pretty sure that he wrote Ibey Hanachal (his letters to Zalman Shazar) in Hebrew! If anyone has any thoughts on this, let me know. I might change the reference to him only speaking Yiddish and French though...

Sorry, I made a mistake here, and I'll fix it. Someone who knew him and who told me this information clarified that Odesser only spoke Hebrew and Yiddish, while the boys he spoke to only spoke English and French. Yoninah 09:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, the person who 'found' Reb Odesser was a Mizrahi Israeli (Moroccan, if I remember correctly), who spoke Hebrew (as did Reb Odesser). He may have also spoken French, which is why he has a large following in France and travelled there).

Additional information

In 1922 a Breslover Hasid by the name of Israel Dov Odesser, fondly known as the Saba, recieved a note from Rabbi Nachman, in his lifetime Rabbi Nachman signed his name: Nachman, in this note, called The Petek, he signed his name: Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, that is the first letter of his name Nachman, followed by the first two letters of his name Nachman followed by the first three letters of his name Nachman followed by his entire name Nachman, and then the word MayUman which means, from Uman (the town where Rabbi Nachman is buried). The Petek refers to Saba as "my precious student"! The Petek states: "referring to you I said that my fire will burn till the coming of Mushiach" making it clear that the continuation of way set up by Rabbi Nachman is to be set forth by the Saba. For 60 years the Saba kept the Petek relatively quiet, and then in the early 1980's he publicized it and revolutinized Breslov. Until then Breslov was associated as an elite ultra orthodox black clad zealot clan, Saba changed that image and the role of the Breslov Hasid in society. Saba started a volunteer group of Hasidim who dedicate their lives to spread the holy teachings of Rabbi Nachman. Saba initiated Breslover Hasidim to drive around the street playing loud joyous music to the tunes of Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, they were instructed to get out of the vehicle at every red light and dance like mad. These vehicles circulate the streets bringing great joy and happiness to the masses as they sell Rabbi Nachman's books and deliver his message. To date the followers of Na Nach Nachma Nachman MayUman have printed close to 10 million books of Rabbi Nachman! Today the only hasidim who are completely loyal to the teachings of Rabbi Nachman and to spreading his teachings are those that believe in the Petek and the Master of the Petek. (posted by Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun 16 Dec 2008

In case you have not discovered it yet, the story of the petek is already on the Na Nach Nachma page. Rooster613 (talk) 09:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Fringe" is not NPOV

As I said on the Na Nach Nachma discussion page: To call something a "fringe group" is to disparage it as not important, unworthy, a bunch of crazies, etc. It is a value judgement that does not belong here. A "spin-off," on the other hand, is neutral, as for example, Deep Space Nine is a spin-off from the original Star Trek series. "Spin-off" indicates that something is a branching-off from the original but without the negative connotations of "fringe." I think we can agree that since Reb Odesser, "revealer" of this mantra, was himself a respected Breslov leader in his day, that the current movement is a spin-off from mainstream Breslov. Rooster613 (talk) 14:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Odesser may have been a Breslov yeshiva student, but he was not respected in the movement after revealing his mantra. But I agree that "spin-off" is more NPOV than fringe. Yoninah (talk) 00:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've rewritten the mention of Na Nach in a version I think will be more NPOV and circumvent any fringe/spin-off issue (I hear your argument that "spin-off" is neutral, but I still think it holds subjective tones for many (including myself) and can be very offensive to Nanachs, who believe Nanach is Breslov and is the whole entire Torah, as stated explicitly by Sabba.) I think and hope everyone can be happy with this revision. Nissimnanach (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach[reply]

Also I think the label of "guru" should be avoided. Although the literal meaning may or may not fit here, it has too many tones distasteful to many Jews and Nanachs (e.g. association with avodah zarah etc.). But to say Sabba is a leader of Nanachs, whom they hold in various degrees, I think is much more neutral. Nissimnanach (talk) 17:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach[reply]

I think your rewording works well, Nissimnanach. Yoninah (talk) 19:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Does this belong here?

There is a long section on the modern Na Nachs added recently -- shouldn't this be on the Na Nach page instead? Rooster613 (talk) 14:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out. I shortened it considerably. Yoninah (talk) 00:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial

Nissimnanach: I appreciate your calm and well-reasoned approach to each issue that comes up in Breslov-related articles, and your willingness to talk things out. Regarding the reference to Odesser as "controversial": From our point of view here in Israel, Na Nach is indeed everywhere. But from the larger point of view of Breslov history, Na Nach is a spinoff of the mainstream derech handed down by Rebbe Nachman to Reb Noson to Reb Nachman Chazan to the Tcheriner Rav to Rabbi Avraham Sternhartz to Rabbi Levi Yitzchok Bender to Rabbi Eliyahu Chaim Rosen. Unlike mainstream Breslov, it interprets the teachings of Rebbe Nachman through the lens of Rabbi Odesser's teachings. And the whole idea of the "Letter from Heaven," supposedly written by Rebbe Nachman 112 years after his death, was rejected by every mainstream Breslover leader of the 20th century. Odesser's total identification with Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman was also looked askance by Breslov leaders who thought he was identifying himself with Rebbe Nachman. The fact that some people (Na Nachs) believe in him while most people (mainstream Breslovers) don't makes him "controversial". Yoninah (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yoninah: So much to say but for right now suffice it to say what you wrote above defining "mainstream" Brelov is very POV, and in my opinion, incorrect, and offensive to me and others whom it marginalizes. Nanachs could just as well claim "the mainstream derech handed down by Rabbi Nachman is via Reb Noson to Moshe Breslover to Israel Karduner to Yisroel Ber Odesser. Breslov is not a dynasty. Rabi Nachman is Rosh Bnei Israel (LM) until Mashiach ("I have prepared everything for Mashiach." "My fire flicker until Mashiach comes" etc). Even in Rabi Natan's day, the masses were trying to make a Rebbe out of him and he was running from this, and they told him a story to console him, about how over the course of time some masses of people started to make the servant of some great doctor more publicized and honored than the doctor himself, and the doctor say "But you know the difference between me and you!" He (Rabi Natan) replied and said, "Don't despair and do not be swayed by this, for this is the way of the world, that in each generation 98% do not know the truth, and 2% know." (Kochavei Ohr, Sipurim Niflaim amud 207 and http://nanach.org/books/etzot-masiyot.pdf) On what basis do you claim what is "mainstream?" Certainly numbers and fame are not reliable, as is clear from our sefarim in so many places (In this time, it is not proper for someone to want to be elevated, rather he should run from honor and elevation in emet. (Likutei Etzot, Kavod 34).) In fact, this concept of mefursamei shel sheker is so decried in our Sifrei Breslev that you can get positive indication hereby that somebody is a shakran and not the true way if he accepts publicity and honor, as some Breslov "leaders" do, b'avonoteinu harabim. So l'maaseh, I do not think it is NPOV and inoffensive to speak of a "mainstream" Breslov derekh or to call any subgroup "spinoff." If someome wanted to take a take an objective and accurate poll of what percent of Breslevers like Nanach or how often they say Nanach, etc., that would be another thing, but again numbers are meaningless. 72.0.130.211 (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach[reply]

Good edit! Chazaq w'ematz beavodatekh Nissimnanach (talk) 17:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach[reply]

Can yous write in English? The same for the article itself. Zezen (talk) 09:28, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

DOB

I have received this post from Simcha H. on a Nanach chat.

I'm forwarding it here as it might be a starting point for finding a verifiable DOB.

12/14/2022

HH

People say that Saba's birthday is 20 Kislev, 5657.

Na NaCh NaChMa NaChMaN MAyUMaN

Nissimnanach (talk) 14:57, 15 December 2022 (UTC)Nissimnanach[reply]

Need to clean up the part about him being the messiah

The portion that calls him the messiah is not npov and is in fact factually incorrect. Need correction 67.70.21.125 (talk) 05:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]