Talk:We Need to Talk About Kevin (film)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Trevj (talk • contribs) 15:11, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Plot summary

Can someone who has seen the film and who knows how to write a coherent, concise plot summary, please do so? This summary is very poorly written, but I haven't seen the film yet and can't fix it. Thanks.--TEHodson 02:50, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The plot summary was just not okay in that form, so I restored the original, one sentence summary for now.--TEHodson 03:03, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

To Patrick: I'm going to be very frank, as it's important to be really clear and to get the summary right.

• A plot summary has to follow a particular format (see WP:How to write a plot summary), which you need to learn before you write anything else.
• Go to a good plot summary, such as for Heavenly Creatures or The Body, and see how it's done there. Notice that it's chronological, brief, and in the present tense.
• A high standard of English is required in order to write good prose. I can't tell if you aren't fluent, or just don't know how to write a plot summary (see above). In any case, your writing is simply not good enough for Wikipedia, at least from what I've seen on this article. Can you show me another plot summary you've written from scratch? Is this your first one?

Unfortunately, the film isn't in wide release yet, so almost no one has seen it. It would be better for now to leave the one sentence summary, which is accurate (I've read the book) as far as it goes. I agree it's not enough, but what you wrote simply will not do. I can't even edit it for clarity and grammar, because I can't tell what you're trying to say well enough to clean it up. If you re-write it here, on the Talk page, per Wikipedia guidelines (after reading the above article on how to do so) perhaps it'll be better, good enough that I can improve it for the article itself. But you must read the guidelines and a couple of other good plot summaries first (most of them here are pretty bad, that's why I've given you two specific examples; The Body is a Featured Article--meaning it's got the highest standard on WP). Don't take this personally, just use it to learn and do better.--TEHodson 07:54, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

This is an example of the problem with what you wrote (this is a copy and paste from your edit): "Even just after giving birth to him her main feeling was being physically miserable. From being a baby he did not like Eva very much, and conversely; Franklin got along with Kevin much better."

In a plot summary you can't say "her main feeling was being physically miserable." You have to say something like: "Eva is unable to quiet her son's crying." Just a factual statement, no interpretation of "feelings." Nor can you say "From being a baby he did not like Eva very much." For one thing, that's just terrible English; for another, you're again talking about feelings. You have to say something like, "As a baby he cried incessantly." Do you see the difference?--TEHodson 08:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed this part for now.--Patrick (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I have tried to explain to you why what you've written is not a plot summary. You cannot keep insisting on keeping what does not fulfill Wikipedia guidelines just because you wrote it. It is not acceptable. I've given you examples to follow. I've suggested you read up on how to write a plot summary. You do not seem to understand why what you've written is unacceptable, so I don't know what else to do. Please do not revert it back to your version. It simply does not meet WP standards. And when something is in dispute, you have to wait until the dispute has been resolved before continuing. Please stop. The article can wait until someone who knows how to write a plot summary has seen the film.--TEHodson 22:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

TEHodson asked me to come take a look at this dispute. I've not seen this film, but I agree the following description is very confusing, as if it was written using a machine translator from another language. I've indicated the problematic areas in red with descriptions of why they should be changed:

16-year-old Kevin likes the bow and arrow sport. His father Franklin gave him a small set before, and now gives him a large set. Also Kevin receives a set of locks by mail order, and claims that his intention is to resell them for a profit. However, he kills Franklin and his little sister Celia with his bow and arrows, and goes to his highschool where he uses the locks to lock a room, to shoot students. After the police saws a lock open he surrenders, and is jailed.

His mother, Eva Khatchadourian, suffers from angry and even violent reactions from town people, but she understands them, and does not report them to the police.

Flashbacks show Eva's memories: Kevin has been acting strangely for a long time. Even just after giving birth to him her main feeling was being physically miserable. From being a baby he did not like Eva very much, and conversely; Franklin got along with Kevin much better. Kevin was longer incontinent than normal. On one occasion he seemed to deliberately defecate in his diaper just after Eva changed it, making her so angry that she threw him to the ground, causing him to break an arm; he did not tell on her to the doctor or Franklin. From then on his incontinence was over. Kevin may have been responsible for the death of Celia's pet, and an incident in which Celia lost an eye affected by a dangerous household chemical (it might have been caused deliberately by Kevin, or have been an accident caused by negligence of Kevin or perhaps Eva). He often talked very little and seemed retarded, but other times his behavior seemed due to unwillingness to behave as desired. Eva recalls a rare occasion where Kevin, when a little boy, was sweet to her: when she read a book to him about somebody fighting with bow and arrow.

Eva visits Kevin in jail and asks him why he did the killings. He answers that he is not so sure anymore about his motive.

• Sentences starting with numbers need to have the numbers spelled out: Sixteen
• Archery is archery.
• Gave him a set when? When is before?
• Now gives him? When is now?
• "his little sister Celia"--whose little sister? Kevin or Franklin?
• high school is two words
• locks to lock a room? I don't know what this means.
  • "lock" is both a noun and a verb; it is not simply locking a door, it is putting his own lock there, such that the door cannot be opened; anyway, I rephrased it below.--Patrick (talk) 01:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
• suffers from angry? That needs to be reworded
  • "angry and even violent reactions", seems ok.--Patrick (talk) 01:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

These are a few examples. The rest should be easy to cover. There should be a coherent plot summary, which Patrick has attempted, but it should be readable. --Moni3 (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Moni. I would add:

• Do not attempt to interpret the feelings of the characters — simply state what they do (as in the above example I gave you: "Eva is unable to quiet Kevin's incessant crying" rather than saying that Kevin doesn't "like" his mother.) Don't interpret the meaning of soiling the diaper. If you think his doing so is important, just state that he does it.
• Say that the film is shown in flashback, rather than going through the flashbacks one at a time.
• You do not give any explanation regarding the hostility of the people around Eva. When does this occur?
• How old is Kevin when he attacks the school?
• Don't try to detail every minute of the film — just give a brief sketch of the most important things that happen.

It would be a good idea to write your new summary here first, so I can edit it for possible English-language problems. Then when it's in good shape, we can post it to the article itself.--TEHodson 23:12, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

After reading several reviews, re-viewing the clips available, I have written a brief plot summary. I will expand it once I've seen the film.--TEHodson 00:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Moni, that is much more helpful. For several of the imperfections "I can't even edit it for clarity and grammar, because I can't tell what you're trying to say well enough to clean it up." is nonsense, it is obvious what is meant by "16", "bow and arrow", "highschool", etc. The new version of the first part would become:

Sixteen-year-old Kevin likes archery. His father Franklin first gave him a small bow-and-arrow set, and later a large one. Also Kevin receives a set of locks by mail order, and claims that his intention is to resell them for a profit. However, Kevin kills Franklin and Kevin's little sister Celia with his bow and arrows, and goes to his high school where he shoot students after attaching his locks to doors to prevent their escape. After the police saws a lock open he surrenders, and is jailed.Patrick (talk) 01:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

That at least makes sense, but you still can't say "Kevin likes archery" in a plot summary. You can't interpret the feelings of the characters. Please note that nowhere in the plot summary that I wrote are any of the characters' feelings mentioned. And what I wrote wasn't "nonsense." I gave you very specific examples of how to rewrite and improve your plot summary. In any case, there's one now, so it's all moot.--TEHodson 01:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

You failed to correct "16", "bow and arrow sport", "highschool", etc. or even to mention these errors, you just complained (among other things) about unspecified errors in English.--Patrick (talk) 01:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Kevin does not shoot Celia in the eye; the eye was affected by a cleaning liquid. This was caused deliberately by Kevin, or was an accident caused by negligence of Kevin or perhaps Eva (not putting away the bottle with dangerous liquid, so that Celia could hurt herself). The film leaves this open.--Patrick (talk) 01:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, you are supposed to merge your additions and corrections with the existing text, not to completely rewrite it. Important plot elements I supplied are not included.--Patrick (talk) 01:58, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction; you can see that I have made it. Now, as for your complaints: I gave you a good starting point for re-writing the plot summary, and that point was first reading up on WP:How to write a plot summary and checking out two or three other excellent ones. Had you done that, you'd have come back here better able to tackle the task. You ignored me. I assume you did not ignore Moni because I told you she is an administrator, but both of us gave you meaningful advice and either of us would have helped you to learn how to write a proper plot summary in English. I am a writer by trade, and spend a great deal of time on Wikipedia cleaning up other people's prose, and as a former filmmaker, have paid particular attention to plot summaries for films. I have written and re-written dozens of them and my efforts are well-noted by those who have dedicated themselves to making plot summaries brief, concise, and well-written.

Next complaint: One is not "supposed" to do anything. One can entirely re-write any article from scratch, let alone a plot summary. Moni has been re-writing from scratch articles on Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters and I've been copy-editing them. If something is not well-written, or well-thought out, one is often better starting from scratch rather than trying to deal with another person's ill-formed ideas and prose. Regarding "important plot elements" I again urge you to read WP:How to write a plot summary. We are not concerned with retelling every detail of the film's plot. If something is important and not included, please say so here, on the Talk page, and it will be considered. I included your point about difficulties with toilet training. The locks on the doors is not an important plot point; that is trivium. If you will tell me what happened to Celia's pet I will include those details. I will put in the bit about Kevin's arm now. I can't see anything else that was left out. It would be helpful if you would indicate that you can see the difference between what you started with and what's there now. It would be good for you to learn how to do this in good English. I read the plot summary for "The Blond with Bare Breasts." It needs a rewrite, but it seems the article is scheduled for deletion?--TEHodson 02:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Your remarks such as that the text should be in proper English and in a good style are not specific enough. Moni suggested a few specific corrections and improvements. Normally people make such edits themselves without a fuss (I do that all the time), but pointing them out on the talk page is also helpful. Also Moni pointed out an ambiguity: "whose little sister? Kevin or Franklin?". In this case he/she cannot make the edit him/herself, so using the talk page is even the best alternative instead of the second best.--Patrick (talk) 09:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

If you are referring to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Blonde with Bare Breasts, that proposed deletion is quite old and the result was keep.--Patrick (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It looks like "tell on her" is proper English (although marked above). What I mean is that Kevin did not tell the doctor or Franklin that Eva threw Kevin to the ground, causing him to break an arm. Also (I did not write that yet), although Eva admitted that is was her fault, this was understood as negligence that could be forgiven, instead of violence. These seem noteworthy plot elements that are still missing.--Patrick (talk) 10:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

A factual statement is better than interpretation, so "he smiles" may be better than "he likes it", but when various facial expressions and certain behavior together show some feeling then summing up these facial expressions and this behavior can become too detailed, and summarizing these by mentioning the feeling (where this is obvious) may be better. The current text also mentions anger and frustration.--Patrick (talk) 10:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I haven't read the book in a while, but I believe that Franklin is not surnamed Khatchakourian. He has a more Anglo-Saxon name: it's Eva that's Armenian and uses that name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.114.109.74 (talk) 19:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I just finished the film and fleshed out the plot summary based on what I viewed, though I have NOT read the book and tried my best to present the events as we are presented with them. Now I need to read the book! Evixir (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Final paragraph rewrite

I rewrote NackFinch's final paragraph to improve the prose, but also took out the following things for the following reasons:

• Buzz cut - There is no context for the new haircut detail. What makes it significant? If you think it's important, please explain what makes it so.
• We can't say Eva "senses the love Kevin wants" as that's a personal interpretation. What is the indication of this? What happens to make you think so? Is this the first hug between them? What does Kevin do or say to indicate that he "wants love"?

Explain those things here if you think those details are important, and then we can figure out how to word it.--TEHodson 07:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Lead is too much of a spoiler

"...struggling to come to terms with her son and the murders he has committed" - I don't know what the site policy about spoilers is, but even though it's fairly obvious from the beginning, a more subtle lead wouldn't hurt. Thanks. 219.79.90.55 (talk) 17:35, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The policy is that we are an encyclopedia and do not care about "spoilers"; this is where people come to learn about the film, not to get a "coming attractions" sort of hit.--TEHodson 07:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually I guess my point is not so much about spoilers, but that the plot does not reflect the fact that the reason why Kevin is in jail is only disclosed at the end of the movie. It's as if the plot for The Sixth Sense started with, "Dr. Malcolm Crowe dies by the hands of a patient, and then continues his presence on screen for the rest of the movie as a ghost". This is not such an extreme case, but the current plot omits the tension that accompanies the whole movie. Well, one aspect of it anyway. 219.79.72.16 (talk) 23:27, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Plot strangely one-sided

A theme of the movie, and the book from which it was adapted, is the the fact that Eva appears to be just as devoid of motherly attachment to Kevin as Kevin is emotionally detached with her. The ambiguity raised is whether, or how much, her own behavior might have contributed to the "creation" of Kevin and led to his darker acts as he grows older. The movie certainly displays this issue throughout--her ambivalence during her pregnancy, her disinterest in holding Kevin after he is born, her desire to drown out his crying with noise, her declaration to him that she was happier before he was born, and so on. The current plot description seems to ignore this fundamental aspect of the movie entirely and instead to present Kevin as clearly a monster from the beginning and Eva as the one who is insightful enough to recognize it.

The article for the book covers pretty well that this emotional lapse exists on the part of both Eva and Kevin.

I'll take a stab at incorporating some of this information into the plot summary later without lapsing into original research or arriving at any conclusions or judgments (as the point of the book and the movie is, in fact, that very ambiguity). Grandpallama (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I took a shot at this and hopefully reflected what you were intending. Evixir (talk) 19:16, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Evixir, the previous version was a long way from perfect, lacking information and with WP:OR such as "a torn individual fighting anger and rage most of his life". However, your additions go against WP:FILMPLOT policy, with personal interpretation (such as "a nod to possible postpartum depression"), inappropriate information about editing rather than plot (such as "The film is presented with flashbacks to the past"), and essay-like writing rather than encyclopaedic. See Wikipedia:How to write a plot summary for more information about this sort of thing. Popcornduff (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Popcornduff, thanks for the critique; agreed that the older version you restored is at least better than the one that was there before I edited.Evixir (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)