Talk:Watford Gap

The song lyrics externally linked to are not for Roy Harpers song.

The only place I have ever found the song on the net is on the MGP site Pandora.com, and I haven't found the lyrics at all.

Map please

A map of Britain showing where the Watford Gap is would be helpful. It says its in Northampton, but most people have only a vague idea of where that is. 80.2.203.119 (talk) 17:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried the two map links in External links? Saga City (talk) 22:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and that is the service station only, what I was after was some sort of map that showed where the "Watford Gap" began and where it ended (I'm guessing that the Watford Gap Coaching Inn on the Kilsby Road was at the head of the valley). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.19.183 (talk) 18:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

agreed- it's daft not to show where it actually is. 82.69.49.83 (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Watford Gap in Birmingham

Confusingly, there is also another Watford Gap in Birmingham. This is to the north of the city and, in fact, marks the northern border of Birmingham. You can see a map of it here http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=watford+gap+road&countryCode=GB#map=52.60783,-1.83712%7C17%7C4&dp=os&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:52.6046:-1.84448:17%7Cblake%20street%7CBlake%20Street,%20Shelley%20Drive,%20Birmingham I wonder if this might also be seen as some sort of imaginary north-south boundary? 89.168.94.145 (talk) 23:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Politics

Why no section on the political references to the Watford Gap as a meaning to the poverty divide and differing social, economical and cultural attitudes between the North and South of England?

• Why the Watford Gap will never be bridged
• The border between the two England's
• A New North-South Divide
• North/South Divide in Pictures (quite funny)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.39.30 (talk) 10:33, 29 June 2013 (UTC) 

Origin of the phrase "North of Watford"

I and unregistered User:Tony Marshall disagree about this. The village of Watford in Northamptonshire was mentioned in the Domesday Book. I do not disagree that there is good evidence that the phrase "Watford Gap" was in use well before the motorway service area of the same name was built. My disagreement with Tony Marshall is with his assertion that "the original "North of Watford" expression almost certainly referred to the much larger Watford town in Hertfordshire, as Watford was the last urban stop on the main railway line out of London to the north of England". No evidence is cited in support of this and "almost certainly" is a deprecated weasel phrase see: WP:WEASEL. If a reliable source WP:RELIABLE source can be cited, the phrase can be re-written without the weasel words. If not, it does not comply with the policy that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources" and the assertion should be deleted.

If Tony Marshall has evidence or disagrees, he should discuss the matter here, not by edit warring WP:EDITWAR.--TedColes (talk) 22:02, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the phrase originated to mean Watford, Northants. It is just common sense that the phrase (originating in the 1940s or before) would have meant Watford, Hertfordshire. The town is much much larger, and is known to almost everyone in the south of England. Watford, Northants is virtually unknown to most of the population (although of course Watford Gap has become well known post-1959). Common sense dictates that Watford, Herts was the origin of the phrase, especially as it was the last stop out of London to Birmingham and Manchester. There needs to be source evidence to prove it was Watford, Northants, of which I can find no evidence. I will change the wording slightly from "almost certainly" to "probably" on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Marshall (talk • contribs) 16:12, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I quote Brandon Robshaw [1]

"In fact Watford Gap is not really very far north, being in Northamptonshire, barely the Midlands – but you have to pass it if you’re driving up the M1, hence the expression. What’s interesting, though, is that that expression quickly became corrupted to “north of Watford”. The town of Watford is a completely different place, in Hertfordshire, even less far north. It’s only just outside London. So this mistake intensified the meaning of the expression, making southerners, and Londoners in particular, seem even more metrocentric. The mistake became entrenched, to the extent that in the 1980s there was a TV show called North of Watford; and that’s the version that almost everybody uses now. But I thought it worth recalling the original expression."

And David Butterfield in The Spectator [2]

"The truth about The Watford Gap: The line between north and south Britain has a long cultural history — and is nothing to do with Watford, North London"

So, how about reflecting this by saying that the expression originated as meaning North of Watford Gap, but has become ambiguous because of the corrupting influence of "southerners, and Londoners in particular"?

But still the evidence is not strong either way, so perhaps it would be better omitted altogether. --TedColes (talk) 16:41, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I haven't seen any evidence from pre-1959. All the evidence about origins comes from much later, and hypothesises that it was "Watford Gap" shortened to "Watford". However, I don't think people appreciate the saying pre-dates the Watford Gap service station by some time. I think it is obvious the expression referred to Watford, Herts. If you mentioned to anyone in London in the 1950s "Watford", they would immediately think of the Herts town and not be aware of any other Watford town. I think it is important to say that the origin was likely originally meaning Watford, Herts, as there is a mis-conception it originated to mean the Watford Gap service station, which is proved to be incorrect. There should definitely be something on Wikipedia to say the expression pre-dates the service station, and is therefore likely to refer to Watford, Herts originally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Marshall (talk • contribs) 16:54, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

The Brandon Robshaw quote has been proven to be incorrect. He says that the expression originated as you pass Watford Gap on the M1. However, the M1 was built several years after the expression became popular in common language.Tony Marshall (talk) 19:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

There is no doubt that the phrase "Watford Gap" pre-dates the M1 service station, see the Northampton Mercury news report dated 23 February 1793: [3]. The point at issue is whether there is good evidence as to the origin of the phrase "North of Watford". A personal opinion that "the origin was likely originally meaning Watford, Herts" does not meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability see: WP:VERIFY --TedColes (talk) 06:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Agree the phrase "Watford Gap" pre-dates 1959. This debate is about the phrase "North of Watford" however. I have put the section in the relevant part of the article under North/South divide and re-worded to make it clearer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Marshall (talk • contribs) 09:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC) I have re-worded so that everything is substantiated and there is no personal opinion.Tony Marshall (talk) 09:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)