Talk:Veridia

Requested move 14 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per discussion; Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks, MOS:ALLCAPS.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:42, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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VERIDIA → Veridia – WP:MOSTM. I get that this band REALLY WANTS TO BE IN CAPS, fine, but not in the title when Billboard, ESPN and all other independent WP:RS don't stylize it. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support per nom's clear guideline-based rationale. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support per nom, and its preferred stylization can be indicated in the lede. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:34, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support per nom -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 08:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support The stylization does not trump the way it is actually named. Scientific Alan 2^{(What have I said?)(What have I done?)} 08:07, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Suggestion for Edits

Can we look into getting an updated picture of the band including new concert photos? If everyone approves I can work on getting pictures that conform to the rules of pictures being non-copyrighted. --MJC8104 (talk) 02:50, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

As long as they don't violate copyright, commons would be happy to have new, better photos. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

New Section Suggestion

Can we add a new section for officially released Music Videos? Not looking to upload Videos into the commons just add the video names, descriptions and sourced links to the videos. --MJC8104 (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

With sources, yes. You could do it like Flyleaf discography#Music videos or Red discography#Music videos, or just omit the direct column if not known. Alternately, just link the video itself. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:22, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Notable works

Can you explain further why the Summer Sessions vol 1 page was removed? I understand it wasn't a paid release and didn't chart but it is still a body of work released by the band. Is it due to sites not listing it under the band's discography? Thanks for your response. --MJC8104 (talk) 01:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Just to make a small correction: it wasn't removed, it was turned into a WP:REDIRECT. Nothing has been lost: it's all in the history.

The reason was that its was not notable. It does not meet WP:NALBUM or WP:GNG. If all that sites did was list it in a discography, it would not meet notability criteria. It should have 1) received significant coverage 2) in reliable sources 3) that are independent of the subject (GNG). The NALBUM criteria presumes that this will happen if their criteria are met. Item 1 there is a reiteration of GNG; 2 is charting; 3 is sales; 4 is major awards; 5 and 7 are recognition in another media; and 6 is radio rotation. In short WP:NOTCATALOG states that not everything in the universe that exists or has existed merits an article and WP:NOTINHERITED states that just because the band is notable, not everything they produce is automatically notable. A good example of this is Twenty One Pilots. Because their first and second major studio releases performed well the re-released their earlier self-released works. The first made a bit better impact than the second. As a result that first album has an article but the second does not. Seems like that's the case with this EP. If you were just getting started on the article, you could resurrect it and continue working on it (with using all caps for the band name!) and without linking to it. You can always abandon it or restore it to the redirect. The key knowing that it meets notability criteria before starting on it, but feel free to keep researching. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:56, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Walter. This helps and clarifies it for me especially with the example of Twenty One Pilots. I was done working on the page, but will continue to look for other sources. I'll leave the page in history until I find better resources. Thanks again.--MJC8104 (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Consider asking the band?

Taking a look at the edit history seems that some people think VERIDIA is not a "Christian rock" band and rather is "alternative". I've heard this myself. Has anyone actually considered conducting a tiny interview with them, even if you just ask them one question: "Do you fit the Christian Rock label?" Wouldn't one of them saying that suffice for an encyclopedic article? "Adding Source back in and removing the term Christian. Regardless of what the band wants this is the truth no matter what other labels are put on them." That's a little odd that an encyclopedia would disregard primary sources. They literally say it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 03:33, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

--Zeke Marffy (talk) 03:08, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course they are, and there are multiple sources to support that they are. They may want to be something else, but they are what reliable sources say they are. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:16, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Forgive me if I’m missing something here, but you’re saying Wikipedia respects users’ opinions rather than primary sources? I don’t think encyclopedias are supposed to do that and I’m very confused by that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 13:56, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the experts on the subject are more trustworthy than bands trying to promote themselves. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

“the experts on the subject are more trustworthy than bands”. I really, truly am not understanding this. The band is a primary source. They’ve done plenty of interviews that not once mention “Christian” and very often mention “alternative”. I can list all of these sources on an edit. There are so many it may even be overkill. The “experts” are a secondary source. And… Why do we consider them experts? Also not sure about that one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 14:32, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry you don't understand this. A music review is not trying to sell the band. The band's goal is to sell themselves. The interviews are not secondary sources: the band is the subject and they're speaking for themselves. If the band said they're not people, they're lasagne, would we add that? The band are trying to sell a product: themselves. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:40, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

This thread is getting long, haha. So are you saying that interviews are out of the question as sources because they’re too biased, so we must must go with music reviews? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 14:48, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia says that WP:PRIMARY sources should be used "with care". If they were discussing why they wrote a song or about an event, they'd be fine to use. Writers on music should be relied upon to establish a band's genre though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't find much on there that answers this: What makes a secondary source "reliable"? I guess if we could find many reliable secondary sources that make a claim, then we can list that claim. (Even though that's not how encyclopedias work, but that's besides the point.) So what exactly is that "reliable" threshold? Where can I get details on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 01:37, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

An article should cover the life of a subject. Even if they successfully convince music reviewers that they are no longer "Christian" or that whatever their deal is with wanting to shed the label, we have source that place them in the camp now and it will be in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:00, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm still not totally sold on that, but that's OK for now. Does what an artist's genre on Spotify say count? Or is that a "no" too because it's editable by them? Surely Spotify wouldn't allow genres that lie? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 16:32, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I’ll let you answer the question by applying the rule-of-thumb used on the music project (and at WP:RSN): 1) does the source have a recognized editorial oversight process, 2) is there an identifiable author, 3) does the author have credentials to make the claims they're making?

AllMusic is a recognized expert source in the field of music, but all band and album articles have a "genre cloud" to the side. That cloud is generated by some algorithm, not a human, so it is not considered usable, but anything in the prose sections of a bio or review is usable.

Amazon.com album listings have genres, but again, not added by a human via a review. Occasionally, they have a review, but the reviewers credentials have to be vetted before using.

Sputnikmusic has both staff and fan reviews. You have to be careful to find and use only the staff reviews.

The list goes on, but that gives you an idea of how reliable sources are determined. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:54, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Article move

The band is not just stylized in all caps; it's their name. Take a look at any service, including iTunes. Does this not suffice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 03:10, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

MOS:CAPS and other guidelines are clear: it does not matter. We use correct casing. Stylizing is not used. Check out Korn and other bands that use forms of their name. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:15, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, consensus above in the Requested move 14 January 2016 section is clear. Create a new one before you try that trick again. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:18, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh, that does make sense, and I’ve seen the article. What about bands like MGMT though? Isn’t that stylized in all caps and the page should just be called “Mgmt”? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 13:56, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

if you want to talk about moving MGMT, read talk:MGMT#Requested move 5 March 2019 first. In short, no. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:29, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Wow, there's a discussion for everything. Thank you for the clarification there that there is in fact a talk about it but it seems that article names are arbitrarily decided by the most frequent editor. EDIT: Just how I feel there; that's fine if other people don't think that. Just a little worrisome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zmarffy (talk • contribs) 01:33, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Classification Discussion

I thought I'd make a new thread since the other was getting long. Can I provide some references, including example bands that I feel make the argument for VERIDIA being classified as Alternative only and not Christian?

Their songs combine rock, alternative-pop, and electronic elements, each telling a unique story

alt-rock band Veridia is set to release their first full-length album

The band plays music that generally classifies as alternative because it features rock, dark pop, urban tunes as well as Middle Eastern influences

Veridia is a band that was founded in 2014 and is an alternative rock pop band.

Nashville-based pop/rock/electronic band VERIDIA......LADYGUNN raved Veridia…transcends category

As they kicked off their month-long tour with Evanesence this past weekend from Dallas, alt-rock band Veridia

Alt-Rock band VERIDIA has just released a new music video for their No. 1 radio single

I also bring up the following bands for reference: Chevelle, Evanescence and Icon for Hire.

The members of Chevelle are Christian, but they don't think of their band as a "Christian band." Drummer Sam Loeffler believes part of the reason why people have labeled them as such is because their first album appeared in some Christian bookstores. Their first record deal was with a company that was backed by Word, a Christian label that represented John Tesh and Amy Grant. Loeffler said seeing Chevelle's first album Point #1 in Christian bookstores was "an accidental thing."

Chevelle was released under Christian label but was never classified as Christian band. "signed on to Steve Taylor's Squint Entertainment,[3] a contemporary Christian music label". They are not classified as Christian.

Evanescence was originally promoted in Christian stores. Later, the band made it clear they did not want to be considered part of the Christian rock genre.[135] They are not classified as Christian.

Icon for Hire is not listed as Christian even though they released 2 albums on Christian label Tooth and Nail.

--MJC8104 (talk) 00:18, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

You're confusing matters here. Wikipedia does not care what they do and do not want to be called, only what professional music critics call them. Have any sources called them Christian? What other band articles do and do not say is immaterial to this article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:07, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I am confusing matters. All of the references I listed were by authors who reviewed their music, or the band in general, and not direct quotes from the band. Would those authors not be considered 'Critics'? All of those references called the band 'Alternative' only and do not call them a Christian band.

The other band articles directly relate to the discussion, in my opinion. All three of those bands are examples where critics called them a Christian band yet they are not categorized Christian on any of their Wiki pages, or any other current bio. What changed for the other bands that they are not considered Christian on their Wiki page?--MJC8104 (talk) 05:47, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

You are confusing matters. Let me ask you, do we have reviews that call them Christian bands? Do you know if the band's management mad it clear not to use "Christian" when reviewing their most recent works. They would not be the first band whose management has done so. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

The official Word Entertainment press release never called them a "Christian" band but an Alternative band. "Word Entertainment is pleased to present dynamic new alternative rock band VERIDIA." Based on this alone (their own formal label) it should be enough to say they are an 'Alternative band' and not an 'American Christian alternative rock band'

AAEMusic, an official artist booking agency, shows bands like Skillet and Fireflight as Christian but only shows Veridia as Alternative, not a Christian band.

There are reviews that call bands like Evanescence and Icon for Hire Christian bands yet they are not categorized/classified that way. Those reviews are based on an assumption that any band signed to a "Christian" label for one album is automatically a "Christian" band. I contend that based on criteria of critic reviews U2 is a "Christian" band and should be classified as such. . An argument could be made that Megadeth is more of a Christian band based on the fact that they did an entire song, verbatim, from Psalm 23. MJC8104 (talk) 15:15, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

https://www.premierproductions.com/artists/veridia - two works on Christian Rock charts - this is their management, yes?

Those charts: Billboard. Christian Airplay, Christian Albums

AllMusic points this out in their bio as well: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/veridia-mn0003223555/biography

Cross Rhythms started in the UK as a print publication and is now an online media source: http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/news/Single_And_Album/63498/p1/ mentions the charting as well

Then there's the time in 2016 when they accepted NewReleaseToday.com “We Love Christian Music” Awards which they came back to in February 2019: https://twitter.com/VERIDIA/status/1099392529768706048 (no mention of whether they won anything in 2019 though).

And HM (started as Heaven's Metal and now prefers Hard Music) https://hmmagazine.com/veridia-pretty-lies/ say's they're a "a female-fronted Christian rock band".

Finally, you can keep trying to point to other articles, but it's not a useful endeavour. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:22, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I guess this is where I don't understand. Just having a song/record on a Christian music chart does not make them a Christian band. https://www.billboard.com/music/lifehouse/chart-history/christian-songs and https://www.billboard.com/music/carrie-underwood/chart-history/christian-songs

I'm also not sure if PremierProductions is there mgmt company or not, but an old bio or article should not decide a bands current status or future, especially when plenty of other articles make it clear for the present. This is why I used other bands as examples. Just so I know for future, what makes these other articles more definitive than any article I, or anyone else, can put forward? I ask because the official press release from Word Entertainment never called them a Christian band. To me this should be one of the most definitive articles and not a critics 'opinion' of what they think they are.

Again, this is you not reading what I'm writing. The article defines the full history of the band. It's not designed to be a current marketing tool for the band. Premier Productions appears to currently represent them. When was the "We Love Christian Music" award they won? (It was just over a year ago). When was the most recent that they attended? (It was a few months ago). If their biographies are discussing an award, and WP:MUSICBIO makes it one potential criteria for inclusion, it makes sense to discuss it here. Since they have had no other major successes, it makes sense to highlight it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:25, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

References

RfC regarding genre

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should Veridia be listed as a Christian rock band or alternative rock band? Sources and ideas for each provided. Zeke Marffy (talk) 23:16, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

• Both. I never heard of this band before, but my research finds sufficient sourcing for 'alternative' and for 'christian'. The section above, #Classification Discussion, focuses on souring 'alternative' and appears to well support that term. So I focused on checking the Christian angle. A Google News search and found plenty of sources saying 'Christian alternative rock', 'alternative christian', 'christian rock', 'contemporary Christian', or including Veridia in the performers list for a christian-genre concert. Some of these search hits include:[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] These sources, along with their notable Christian music chartings and their Christian label, would all make it odd to exclude this categorization. Alsee (talk) 07:18, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Isn't this circular reporting? Word of mouth that causes something untrue to exist? Why did this come to exist? Primary sources sparingly, yes, but ("I think any artist’s beliefs will naturally inspire what they create. I’ve just never thought of my faith as a marketing tool. It’s a part of who I am. We’ve actually never classified our music as “Christian Rock,” we have always been an Alternative band on all formats.")... Zeke Marffy (talk) 22:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Christian Rock only. What the band thinks they are does not supersede what reliable sources and experts think they are. If they were to say "I've never thought of my music as rock, we have always been a bebop band on all formats", would we care? No. So why would we care now what the band states. See all of the arguments above. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
• Alternative or Alternative Rock only. Some of these references are articles from 2015 when the band was signed to Word Entertainment and it’s safe to say the same assumptions about Word being only a Christian label have been made and used as a reference to challenge the genre of VERIDIA, but Word is in fact a multi-genre record label including Pop, Country, Hip Hop, Christian/Gospel, Classical, Urban, Rock, Jazz. You can find their catalog on their site.[9][10] Therefore being signed to Word Entertainment does not make them a Christian band. Word's official Press Release for the band ONLY called them 'Alternative Rock'.[11] Being a band that has songs/albums on Christian charts, winning or being nominated for Christian awards does not determine a band’s genre. See previous bands in #Classification Discussion for examples that have had successful hits on Christian charts yet are not labeled as such. Veridia’s Genre is also listed as “Alternative” on all streaming outlets.[12][13][14][15] I am not trying to remove any historical accomplishments by the band's chart successes, only trying to correct the genre based on reliable sources/references. MJC8104 (talk) 21:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Never "Alternative Rock", as that's incorrect capitalization! Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:11, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
• Alternative or Alternative rock. Deena pretty directly clears up any genre confusion when asked in two separate interviews about their genre and challenges. The quote “We’ve actually never classified our music as 'Christian Rock,' we have always been an Alternative band on all formats," has already been referenced in LADYGUNN, but I think it's also important to note this part of it: "We are definitely grateful for every stage, radio station, and platform that has shared our music – it’s given us an incredible fan base that has supported us through years of doing what we love!" This in my opinion shows that they're not trying to change anything or push an agenda either way. The other article at Voyagala says, "...we’ve always been an Alternative act, combining all our influences from pop, rock, R&B, urban, and even Middle Eastern music. Early on, we had a couple of No. 1 radio singles from our first two experimental EPs, but they were on Christian Rock radio, even though we aren’t a Christian act. So, there are places online that say we are a Christian or faith-based artist because of that airplay. I don’t believe in using faith as a marketing tool, it’s not a commodity. Just let an artist write from that place of vulnerable honesty, and let the listener connect through their own story." Same deal there. I would suggest respondents to this RfC listen to some of their music. What styles can be heard? I believe Deena's statement is factual. Zeke Marffy (talk) 01:34, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
• Both as there is significant coverage describing them as both genres. If need be, we can add a parenthetical or footnote that the band disavows being a Christian group. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 04:40, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

First, the RfC is not over and so changing the article is premature. Second, capitalization in this edit are wrong. That is discussed above! Third, two new editors who are essentially WP:SPAs wanting to remove Christian from the list of genres is no reason to remove it. Two experienced editors have sources that it belongs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Fourth, to call a Wordpress.com site a reliable source is a horrible mistake. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:16, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

How long is the RFC supposed to remain open? I didn't see any comments on how long the RFC stays open. From my research the capitalization seemed accurate by using Alternative rock, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_rock For the third point does that mean any sources I provide to show that removing 'Christian' is correct, since I'm new, will automatically be rejected due to my lack of being an experienced editor? I understand that I'm new and this is the first set of pages I'm trying to edit but I'm not moving on to edit other pages (which is a goal) since I'm using this as a learning experience. Fourth point, I can agree Wordpress was not the best source so this is another reliable (not a blog) source stating the same thing. https://urbanchristiannews.com/2014/02/word_records_to_unveil_new_rock_band_veridia_february_25/ --MJC8104 (talk) 01:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

About a month usually and an experienced editor will close it. Again, no, the capitalization would have been vastly wrong. See MOS:CAPS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Have they denied being Christian rock? I see "we've actually never classified our music as 'Christian rock'" but that's not a denial that the classification by others is accurate. -Pine457 (talk) 05:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

They do say the band is not a 'Christian' act. "Early on, we had a couple of No. 1 radio singles from our first two experimental EPs, but they were on Christian Rock radio, even though we aren’t a Christian act." http://voyagela.com/interview/meet-deena-jakoub-veridia-mostly-east/ MJC8104 (talk) 19:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

So we're not a Christian act we just had some music that other people think fit into the Christian rock genre. I'm glad they confirmed that their music is Christian rock and that they themselves are not a rock. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:57, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Saying they had a few songs on Christian Rock radio doesn't confirm they are a Christian rock band! There is more than enough bands on Christian radio that are not Christian bands. That's like saying Jethro Tull is a heavy metal band because they won a Grammy for Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance Vocal or Instrumental.MJC8104 (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

If a few of their songs charted on the jazz charts, those songs would be jazz. If they were nominated for an award from the US body excellence in classical music would imply their music is classical. So, yes, charting on Christian rock radio means their music is Christian rock and accepting a Dove Award nomination implies that their music is Christian. Whether they like the label applied to the band or not is deeply immaterial. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggestion to Compromise

In fairness to everyone can we come to a compromise on the Genre for the band Veridia? The compromise would be to move Veridia's genre fully to 'Alternative rock' while adding a paragraph or two detailing their history of Christian radio, chart success, label activity, tours/concerts, and award nominations. We could even add in the statement "Although the band members are Christians, they have never considered Veridia to be a Christian act."

• It’s true that Wikipedia articles are constantly being updated to reflect current information.
• It’s true there are almost too many references for the band Veridia to be only classified ‘Alternative rock’ genre, including the original press release from their former label.
• It's true there are articles using direct quotes from Veridia stating they are not a “Christian act” and "We’ve actually never classified our music as 'Christian Rock,' we have always been an Alternative band on all formats." All of these articles have been put forth in discussions and the RFC.
• It's true that this "compromise" has been done for many other bands/artists on Wikipedia.

I would like to use the Galactic Cowboys Wikipedia page for reference, “Although the band members are Christians, they did not consider Galactic Cowboys to be a Christian band.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Cowboys
Another reference is the Switchfoot Wikipedia Page, “The band has always philosophically disagreed with this label; "We're Christian by faith, not genre,"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchfoot

If the previous statements, directly from the band, are able to be used in this way, by the editors of their Wiki pages, then statements like that should be able to be used by all bands.

Everything stated above has been applied to artists/bands like Galactic Cowboys, Icon for Hire, Evanescence, X-Sinner, Starflyer59, Project 86, Flyleaf, Lacey Sturm, Anberlin, Paramore, Brad Paisley, Carrie Underwood, Scott Stapp, Switchfoot, etc. Some of the previously stated artists have also charted on Christian charts, have massive Christian radio airplay and won Dove awards.MJC8104 (talk) 03:30, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Please stop comparing them to other bands or musicians.

What do the sources say about this band? That's what we should write about. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I am still trying to understand the rules governing Wikipedia edits. I present other bands as examples only to reference their Wikipedia pages. From my perspective those pages are able to use references/sources in ways that seem to be not allowed on this page. Also the bands listed as references are not categorized as "Christian" even though they meet, and even exceed, the "criteria" being used for this bands page.

Is it possible to come to a compromise based on the suggestions above? MJC8104 (talk) 20:04, 31 October 2019 (UTC)