Talk:Toni Androić

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:39, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Toni Androic → Toni Androić – There was no consensus regarding the use of diacritics, so this article should use the diacritics until a consensus is reached. See also: Talk:Mate Pavić.

PL Alvarez ^Talk, 07:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose - As per the ATP and ITF tennis organizations, the player's English sourced name is Toni Androic. See also Talk:Marek Zidlicky and Talk:Galina Fokina. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The Hindu and The Philippine Star spell this name without a diacritic. Kauffner (talk) 11:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There is no discussion on diacritics on this talk page, so nominator's rationale is superfluous, so this move is missing a rationale. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 06:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The proposed page move is contrary to the established Wiki-policies of WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:RS. Dolovis (talk) 03:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

full name Toni Androić in BLP lede

WP:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#First_mention states:

"While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known."

None of the examples given in the guideline support the way this article first line is formatted. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:55, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

wiki is pretty flexible. Nothing has to be done one way only. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:42, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the subject's full name given in the lead paragraph? Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Twice "Toni Androic (Croatian Toni Androić) (b 1991)", but WP:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#First_mention has 3 examples of the format per "Toni Androić (b 1991)". In ictu oculi (talk) 11:57, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Cúchullain ^t/c 19:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Toni Androic → Toni Androić – Per sources (in Croatian language), encyclopedic correctness and consistency. HandsomeFella (talk) 16:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Consensus seems to be changing rapidly since the unsuccessful move above. Marek Hrivík and Stéphane Charbonneau were moved along with many similar articles, and Paul Rémy has followed suit. Eduardo Barragan looks to be headed the same way with another batch. Diacritical forms represent the people's actual names, and their omission, even in reliable sources, is more readily attributable to typographical restrictions or convenience, neither of which are a problem for us. --BDD (talk) 19:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support, the same arguments apply here as for several other recent requested-move surveys (which mostly involved Serbs rather than Croats, but the principle is the same). — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 23:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support The arguments that lead to the outcome of the previous rm here have since been rejected by the wider community in an rfc. Agathoclea (talk) 05:17, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per all above, but with an additional note that the community rejection of WP:TENNISNAMES RfC also rejected the Paul Féret (born 27 July 1901, in Paris) also known in Tennis as Paul Feret-type tennis-ledes contrary to WP:OPENPARA, and that this RM should also permanently remove "Toni Androić or Toni Androic" from the lede here. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As I wrote at Talk:Miljan Zekić:

Support because User talk:MakeSense64/Tennis names#RfC: Can a wikiproject require no-diacritics names, based on an organisation's rule or commonness in English press? was quite clear - there's absolutely no consensus to automagically remove diacritics from tennis player names or to treat their names without diacritics as "stage names". Is this tennis-induced colossal waste of time move-a-thon ever going to end? :(

In addition, there are two more specific insult-to-injury issues here:

Androić has been inconsistent with all the others in {{Top ten Croatian male singles tennis players}} who are actually much better known to English readers and whose articles are probably read by many more English readers, and yet none of those are being complained about.
Even after our local crusaders for the cause of "English" names were done moving the article away from diacritic, the date formatting in the article was left as non-English.

After all this, I find it hard not to think that that the point of the whole exercise isn't on actual support for the English language and care for the native English readers, rather that it's merely thinly veiled xenophobia that has no place in an encyclopedia.

Overall, *facepalm* --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - per English sources, ATP and ITF. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
support per BDD.--KarlB (talk) 12:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - . We don't decide what is "correct" - we presume usage in reliable sources is "correct", and simply follow that. The current spelling of this article's title reflects common usage in reliable English sources, like the NY Times. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:04, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the umpteenth time, nobody's claiming the version without diacritics is incorrect, it's merely the less precise version that has no relevant encyclopedic advantages over the precise name. You can't claim Toni Androić is unverifiable in reliable English sources as opposed to Toni Androic, because the two are interchangeable - that's the common usage. Use of the version without diacritics does not indicate willingness of these sources to pretend that they've actually changed the name of the person to a different, more English one, rather it indicates their unwillingness to adopt a character set that supports the precise name. Which is a perfectly legitimate decision, but one that has nothing to do with what the encyclopedia. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm claiming that. ć and c are written and pronounced differently. That you can replace one with the other and not impede understanding much doesn't matter. I could talk all day about Bareck Obama and you'd understand what I'm saying, but I'd still be wrong. Reliable sources are not infallible sources, and where they are wrong they should not be used. (I know, I know... WP:TRUTH) --BDD (talk) 15:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's actually an argument that fits the other viewpoint: if one thinks that we should lose the acute accent because sources do it, too, they'll say it's not "wrong" because they'll say there's no requirement to be "right" - they simply want only the English alphabet used like the sources do, thereby also invoking the inviolable WP:V. What I'm saying is that my argument is orthogonal to that argument - there is no actual loss of verifiability if we use the acute. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.