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Talk:Timeline of the Syrian civil war (January–April 2012)

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PressTV

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Per numerous discussions at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources noticeboard, the Iranian state-run propaganda service PressTV is not a reliable source ([1], [2]) and should not be used unless better-known, more trustworthy outlets report the same things it says. In cases like this uprising, which is of clear concern to the pro-Assad Iranian government, it should probably not be used at all because it is inseparable from the powerful bias of its masters. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is true, state media of any kind must be handled with extreme caution, much more so state media from a country which has a "ministry of propaganda" like iran. Considering that Iran is recognized as having an international significance in the Syrian uprising, pressTV should not be used, nor should Turkish Jordanian Iraqi or Lebanese state media be used. I7laseral (talk) 22:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pro-government/Anti-government groups as sources

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I recently added a lot of information from the SANA website, but it was removed by User:Kudzu1. Most of the information was about rebel attacks on government forces. Let me explain why and how I think it should be included in the article...

Firstly: I'm aware that SANA is a state-run news outlet (and thus non-neutral), but that shouldn't stop us from presenting its news in a neutral way. For example, "five soldiers were shot dead by terrorists in Homs" can be reworded: "SANA reported that five soldiers were shot dead in Homs". The SNC and SOHR are also non-neutral (because they oppose the government), yet this article presents their news in a neutral way. If we can do it for the opposition groups surely we can do it for SANA too?

Secondly: as foreign reporting is highly restricted, SANA is the only news outlet giving us detailed news about attacks on government forces. If we ignore all of its news then this article will be left severely lacking in information.

So, I think we hav two choices: either we include news from both pro-government and anti-government sources (worded in the way I outlined above), or we include neither.

(please note that my support for including news from SANA doesn't mean that I support SANA or the Syrian government)

~Asarlaí 22:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My general rule of thumb is to attribute. If you'll notice both my writing and copy-editing patterns on this page and others, instead of saying, "Security forces killed four people in Arbeen," I would say, "Anti-government activists [naming the group if that information is available] said security forces killed four people in Arbeen." If the outlet reporting it can be considered to have a significant stake, or if the information only appears in one significant source, that should attributed as well: "Anti-government activists were quoted by the Hurriyet Daily News as saying security forces killed four people in Arbeen." That all goes for SANA too, because SANA is not a reliable source; it is the mouthpiece of a regime that is, regardless of exactly what is happening on the ground in Syria, clearly fighting desperately for its life and working overtime to keep as many people as can possibly be convinced believing its version of events. -Kudzu1 (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. As I noted in my last post, I think it's fine to present news from pro-government and anti-government organizations, so long as it's done in a certain way. If SANA reports that "terrorists shot five soldiers in Homs" we should be presenting it as "SANA reported that five soldiers were shot in Homs". I see you've done that throughout the article (for example here, where you present two news stories - one from each 'side'). However, looking back at my changes, I now realize that I forgot to do that in many of my edits (for which I apologize). I'll begin re-adding the information with proper attribution this time. If I can find other sources reporting the same things I'll add them also. ~Asarlaí 02:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate it. No worries. The other thing is just to avoid doing the bullet-point list format, because it gets messy and it encourages drive-by editors to be lazy about tenses and whatnot. It was a bit of a fiasco on the Timeline of the 2011 Libyan civil war articles. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

lets include Sana on condition that ONLY reports about solider deaths get put on the timeline, and no foreign conspiracy tripe. Sopher99 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That seems awfully arbitrary. My personal opinion is that SANA is full of it and nothing they say should be trusted. But SANA is the media voice of the Syrian government, which is a significant player in this conflict, and notable "news" items it "reports" that are pertinent to the event should be included with due attribution (and, if possible, an independent or countervailing take on the item). -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, so only pro-government news are not to be trusted, and it of course doesnt work the other way around? That's not how Wikipedia works. Besides, there are plenty of sources other than SANA that report the same. FunkMonk (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"that Arabs would uphold their promises to allow Kurdish autonomy in northeastern Syria"

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"that Arabs would uphold their promises to allow Kurdish autonomy in northeastern Syria"

Where in the source does it say that Arabs have promised "Kurdish autonomy in northeastern Syria" ? [3] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I based it off the Al Arabiya article. If you have a problem with the wording, change it, I don't own it. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:31, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Titles for Fridays

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I think the titles for Fridays are on obvious violation of WP:NPOV. They are also completely unnecessary in a timeline article like this. Third, they are unsourced. Consequently, they should be removed. Nanobear (talk) 10:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1- Titles for Fridays are sourced in references describing the events of the day.

2 - Egypt and yemeni uprising uses the same format

3 - Its not a break in NPOV, because it is what those of the uprising calls their fridays. Its a name, no one is saying it is a fact.

4- Reliable sources everywhere (CNN AL jazeera BBC) make note of the Friday names. Sopher99 (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Soldier's burials

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Making note of the burial of Syrian soldiers is an accurate means of keeping track of the number of soldiers who are killed in combat as the conflict escalates. If civilian casualty rates are relevant to the timeline, pro-regime deaths should be included as well.Jat4345 (talk) 17:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We keep track of soldiers deaths by following what sana says about how many of their soldiers died per day, not funerals. Sopher99 (talk) 18:05, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sana seems to state how many pro-Asad troops die each day mainly via announcement of the soldier's burials. Original edits concerning these deaths appear to have been overwritten from "killed during violence" to "buried after". Perhaps it would be better to edit them back so that these deaths represent the violence ongoing in Homs and elsewhere instead of individual funerals?Jat4345 (talk) 18:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Problem is that the deaths are not announced and dated. The burial date are. For one exemple, the general which has been assassinated has been buried today but died yesterday and there is no mean to know when the other people died. So we have to go with the burial date, which also says that they have been killed very recently. --ChronicalUsual (talk) 18:44, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Split.

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A pre-emptive discussion. This article is getting REALLY long. It is currently at about 113kb. I think we should start a new timeline article at the end of the month, so this one would be (January to February 2012) and the new one (from March 2012). Who agrees? Who doesn't? DISCUSS! :) Jeancey (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes especially because the increase in fighting. I7laseral (talk) 15:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stand-alone article for 17 March 2012 Damascus terrorist attacks?

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Do the 17 March 2012 Damascus terrorist attacks warrant their own article, or are they better discussed in this timeline? —C.Fred (talk) 14:59, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neither. I think a simple sentence explaining the bombings and the casualties is all that is needed. Individual massacres in Syria don't get their own article, neither should the bombing. Sopher99 (talk) 19:30, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just deleted the article, when it was revealed that the creator was evading an indefinite block. I'm leaving the text in this article, but I have no objection if any users familiar with the topic want to delete or pare it back. —C.Fred (talk) 20:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New article starting from April 2012

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This article has gotten very long, so it would be appropriate to end this article and start the new one with events from April 2012 onwards. --93.139.137.40 (talk) 10:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's too bad yet, but it should be split at the start of May if this conflict is still ongoing at that point. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

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I replaced the civil conflict infobox with military conflict one in the post-April 2012 parts of the timeline. What do you think should be done with the earlier parts? The conflict, until mid-2012, looked more like an internal issue than a war, even despite the use of military force. Should we keep it consistent over all the parts of the article or leave the civil version in the earlier ones, as it is now? --Emesik (talk) 11:57, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Title change

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Title change of this article is, for reasons of coherence with changing the lead section of Syrian Civil War, since today being discussed on Talk:Syrian Civil War#Correcting lead section Syrian Civil War, under point 10 in the there posted discussion essay. Corriebertus (talk) 16:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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