Talk:Thracian religion

Critique

I cleaned up the article as much as possible. However, the article still needs a lot of work. First and foremost, the content has zero citations even though the article contains references. Elysonius 17:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I cant find anything on these "gods".Megistias (talk) 12:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Family tree

I wanna make a family tree for these gods like this one.[1]who married who and so forth,how?Megistias (talk) 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Pretty cool huh!Genusus Godess of Earth marries Ou god of Heaven,Mikon,god of Friendship & twin brother of Zeau,Zeau,god of Intelligence & twin brother of Mikon,Redos god of the Oceans that lives in a cave,Korrotos,the god of War that marries Broket,Broket,goddess of Food and Fortune that marries Korrotos,Shkumbe,goddess of Love and Beauty,Child Genusus that marries both Mikon and Zeau.Redo marrie Shkumbe.

It needs some more on the couples but will do in the future.

Genusus

Ou

Mikon

Zeau

Redos

Korrotos

Broket

Shkumbe

Child Genusus

Megistias (talk) 21:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it odd that the Illyrian creation gods Ou and Genusus are almost identical to the Greek creation gods Ouranos (Uranus) and Gaia? Weird. Then again, the similarities could just be coincidence. Deucalionite (talk) 14:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Most mythological cosmologies on the planet have the Earth and Sky theme if not all.Megistias (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Its the transition from matriarchal to patriarchal societies.Note that the gods that were born are largely irrelevant to the Greek gods and their intermarriages as well.Korrotos war marries Broket food & fortune......Still i would like to get my hands on this bibliography.Megistias (talk) 15:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Even though the descendants of the Illyrian creation gods are different, it still does not answer the question as to why the names of the Illyrian creation gods (Ou and Genusus) are so similar to the Greek creation gods (Ouranos and Gaia). Even if the Earth and Sky theme is prevalent in many mythological cosmologies, not every series of mythological cosmologies contain similar or identical naming schemes. Then again, there is the possibility that the Illyrians adopted these names from the Greeks (probably the Myceneans if I were to put it at a guess).

Of course, all of this is just conjecture without any modern secondary sources. I cannot seem to at least find some primary sources from, say, ancient Greek and Latin authors. Then again, we shouldn't be surprised over the fact that the Illyrians did not leave a significant amount of material culture (or inscriptions) for us to figure out what they worshipped. We may have Messapic texts, but I am not sure if they contain information pertaining to Illyrian gods. Deucalionite (talk) 14:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken most european cosmologies have striking similarites and i can find you similarities even in japanese and european cosmology.Etruscan sky god "Ani".Wow seems like Uranos-Urani.....But its because of Indoeuropean similarities and archetypal notions not something else.Megistias (talk) 17:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Megistias is right. As Illyrians were Indo-Europeans, we'd only expect a lot of similarity in their religious beliefs with other Indo-European peoples.

Another thing: We definitely need better sourcing. For every single name of a god mentioned here, I want to know exactly how we know of it: where is it attested, in what form, in what ancient writer, in what inscriptions?

I'm particularly suspicious of one item in the list, "Shkumbe". Why does that name look so deceptively similar to modern Albanian? Of course, because of the "Shk-". Why is that suspicious? Because (1) Proto-Indo-European did not have the sound sh, so if someone were to claim Illyrian had developed it, we'd need some very good evidence for that. (2) As far as I know, none of the writing systems known in the area (especially of course Greek) had a letter for the sound sh. If Illyrian had such a sound, and one of their gods had it in their name, we'd still never know, because they could never write it down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately except from very few things perhaps the article maybe "hot nationalist albanian air" and i made the tree for nothing.Megistias (talk) 18:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh noes. "Shkumbe" is of course simply the river name Shkumbin, and guess what the ancient name of that river was, according to our article? "Genusus". This Illyrian pantheon is just a set of geographical features. River gods, at best. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Genusus is what the Greeks called it and call it and and "In ancient times, the river was known as Genusus. It likely took its modern name from Hiskampis, the Greek form of Roman Scampa, the ancient name for Elbasan." The second one may not be illyrian as well.....Megistias (talk) 18:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Shall we scrap the article? I'd be prepared to {{prod}} it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I had hoped we would discover something about the obcure illyrians.The only tree i made and the article turns out to be a sham.I suggest we wait for an answer from the user on that unverifiable source and if its negative kill it.Megistias (talk) 18:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Holy s..t. The whole article was created by an anon IP without any sources whatsoever. Complete with all the alleged names of gods. the book reference was thrown onto it randomly by somebody else much later. There's no reason to believe he even read it, let alone checked whether it confirmed what the article claims. Let's treat it as a sham. We could also redirect it to Indo-European religion, couldn't we? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Its nice to see that you don't even notify an editor that you're making disparaging remarks about their character. I read the damn book, confirmed the topic wasn't a hoax and added it as a reference while wikifying. I don't believe it discussed deity names or details given by the anon and since no confirmation and reference are forthcoming on that detail, I've removed all that when changing back to a stub. I will request the book again from the university library and try to flesh out the article and give page references. Shell ^babelfish 22:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

My apologies for that very rash and baseless part of my comment. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I didnt know it was you and i called for someone to notify you.Megistias (talk) 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring just to Fut.Perf.'s statement that he doubts I read it and the subject is a sham. Obscure, yes, hoax, no. The book compares and contrasts these ancient religions and cultures in addition to covering many other cultural and political aspects. Its my fault for assuming good faith of the IP user who added the details which I did not go through and confirm. Shell ^babelfish 22:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean an Albanian IP user.Megistias (talk) 18:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

A clueless IP user. From Hicksville, NY. [2] :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

amazing.Megistias (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If nobody objects, I'll redirect it now. Nothing lost forever, we can always bring it back if some of the content should turn out to be salvagable after all. Convenience link to last pre-redirect version: [3]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

.I suggest we wait for an answer from the user on that unverifiable source and if its negative kill it.But that source is about political relations in the antiquity and i doubt it has freakin gods...Megistias (talk) 19:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually that's not the entirety of the book. Also, a source is not "unverifiable" just because you don't have access to it. If you have JSTOR access, one of the book review's might give you better overview of its contents (American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 31, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1927), pp. 268-270). Unfortunately for this subject, there's little modern work - much is translations of original texts like The Histories of Polybius or you see Illyrian religion discussed in the context of its influence on others, such as A History of Roman Religion, Altheim and Mattingley, 1938. Shell ^babelfish 22:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, okay, bring it back if you prefer. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

i am confused did you kill it or is it somewhere else?Megistias (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I replaced it with a redirect. the history is still there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources

This looks like a hoax. This is what I found on Illyrian gods from a reliable source, John Wilkes, “The Illyrians” (Blackwell, 1995 ed.) pp.245-247:

“Illyrian deities are named on monuments of the Roman era, some in equation with the gods of the classical pantheon. There seems to have been no single dominant Illyrian deity and some were evidently worshipped only in particular regions. Thus several deities occur only in Istria, including Eia, Malesocus, Boria and Iria. Anzotica was the Liburnian Venus and appears in the traditional image of the classical goddess. Other local deities were Latra, Sentona and the nymph Ica, worshipped in eastern Istria at a spring still known by that name today. Among the Japodes altars were dedicated by the tribal leaders at the Privilica spring near Bihac to the local deity Bindus, identified with Neptune, the classical god of springs and seas. North of the Japodes, the altars to Vidasus and Thana dedicated at the hot springs of Topusko reveal the local identities of Silvanus and Diana, a familiar combination on many dedications in the territory of the Delmatae. Sometimes the name of a local deity is recorded only in the Latin form, for example Armatus at Delminum (Duvno) who was evidently a war god of the Delmatae, and the Latin Liber who appears with the attributes of Silvanus and Terminus, the protector of boundaries. The identity of Tadenus, an identity or epithet of Apollo at the Roman spa near the source of the Bosna, at Ilidza, the ancient Aquae S., is not known, and the name may be of Thracian origin. From the same quarter of the Balkans the cult of the Thracian horseman spread into the Illyrian lands during the Roman period, appearing in the familiar image of the galloping rider with the short cloak streaming out behind. The Illyrian town Rhizon (Risinum) on the Gulf of Kotor had its protective deity Medaurus, named on dedications to Aesculapius at the legendary fortress Lambaesis in Africa by the legate, a Roman senator and native of Risinum in the reign of Marcus Aurelius. The god, who is also commemorated at Risinum, is described in the verses of the text as riding on horseback and carrying a lance”. --Folantin (talk) 20:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, this is very helpful. Would you be inclined to turn that into a new stub? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. I don't think we can have an article on "Illyrian mythology" when all we know is the names of a few local gods without any myths attached to them. "Illyrian religion" might be more viable since Wilkes has a bit more about snake-worship and sun-worship and some other things. But really, not much is known about this subject. BTW I've just read the original version of this article and it comes over as a complete fraud. --Folantin (talk) 20:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

NB: What we don't want is for the previous version of the article to be restored since it's almost certainly a hoax. Wilkes, writing in the 1990s, would have been aware of Casson (the alleged source), who wrote in the 1920s. So we can assume either: (a) the information is not in Casson; or (b) it is but has since been discredited, in which case it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Personally, I have a hard time believing it's not just been made up, either by the original editor or some pseudo-scholarly source. --Folantin (talk) 22:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well done Folantin! Unfortunately, the hoax article was in place for more than two years. dab (𒁳) 09:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Better late than never. Deucalionite (talk) 14:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Latra is Latta

Latra is actually Latta in the source can someone change it?Megistias (talk) 19:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the copy of Wilkes I looked inside online at Amazon.co.uk, it's "Latra". Google books confirms this - although you can't look at the page in question (p.245) "Latra" does come up in the search. There's also a reference to a paper on "Latra: Dea Neditarum" in the bibliography. --Folantin (talk) 19:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

it is? Could it be both names are correct? Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0631198075,page 245,"... Other local deities were Latta, Sentona and the nymph Ica, praying in relief sculpture), Knez 1974 (ritual vessel), Baçe 1984 (temple architecture in Illyrian Albania). 26 ..."Megistias (talk) 20:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Mmmm they both are probably ,"from Index:

"... 266 Latobici, 81, 256; civitas, 217-18 Latta, Liburnian deity, 245 lead-working, 224 Lederata, 83 339 legions, Roman in Illyrian provinces, 211; recruitment, 255, 260 lekythoi, 106 lembus: ...""Megistias (talk) 20:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Which edition is that from? As I say, I've checked the Google books search facility on the 1992 edition and I've looked inside the 1995 edition at Amazon again. They both come up with "Latra" and I can't see that there are any other English editions of Wilkes' book (though I know there's an Italian translation of it). The existence of that paper on "Latra: Dea Neditarum" would appear to confirm the name is "Latra". --Folantin (talk) 20:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The same as yours.It has latta 3 times and latra once.Megistias (talk) 20:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have it on paper too.I ll get a screenshot from the amazon one.Megistias (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Here.[4]...Megistias (talk) 20:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a screenshot from inside the actual book? Maybe Amazon Reader has "misread" it. Google confirms that the Italian essay by J.Medini referenced in Wikles is indeed "Latra: Dea Neditarum" [5]. --Folantin (talk) 20:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Lets stick to the Latra you have confirmed and i ll see more into it tomorrow.It might be an error indeed.Put "latta sentona" in amazon and see what you get.Megistias (talk) 20:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is indeed Amazon's "reader". When I enter "Latta" I get the results you get but when I check the actual pages it is indeed "Latra". --Folantin (talk) 20:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Grand.Megistias (talk) 20:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Bassareus

Bassareus is the Lydian epithete of Dionysus, its not the Thracian version.At the same page Sabazius(as Thracian corn God) is given the name for Dionysus for the Thracians(page 152) and in page 95 Bassareus,Bassarides are mentioned as followers of Dionysus.At page 520 Zalmoxis is also given as a name for Dionysus.

• Dictionary of Ancient Deities by Patricia Turner and the late Charles Russell Coulter, 2001.
• Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898)

entry bassara: ... reaching to the feet. The Lydian Dionysus is hence styled Bassareus, but there is no genuine Hellenic conception of a...

• A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (1890)

entry bassara-cn: ... whole costume got its name from the fox-skin fastening. Bassareus was a name given to the Lydian Dionysus, but ... Etym. Magn. s. v.) worn by the Lydian Bassareus and made of fox-skin, as that of the Megistias (talk) 22:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Move to Paleo-Balkan religion

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved by Zoupan to Paleo-Balkan mythology. ErikHaugen (talk) 01:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

---

Paleo-Balkanic religion → Paleo-Balkan religion — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC) The usual English adjective is "Balkan", not "Balkanic". On Google, for example, we get 287,000 results for [+balkan prehistory], but only 5,300 for [+balkanic prehistory]. --Macrakis (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment It's already "Balkan" not "Balkanic." Is it ok as it is? ErikHaugen (talk) 17:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why on earth was this moved to "mythology" from "religion"? Where's the mythology? Compare, for instance, the difference between Greek mythology and Religion in ancient Greece, or Roman mythology and Religion in ancient Rome, and see also classical mythology. "Mythology" is a body of narratives (represented in literature, oral storytelling, drama, music, visual art and so on), while religion is a body of practices and beliefs, usually but not always pertaining to deities. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:02, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

No Slavonic Words?

How is it possible that you do not use slavonic/ serbian/ sorbian words in Istra? Only latin? No sense! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.139.87 (talk) 13:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Euphemisms for Rape

Phillip II did not seek "ritual union" with "princess"(es)- he ritually defiled, by rape, priestesses of virgin goddesses on multiple occasions. These would war crimes today.

The circle around the throne is a symbolic vagina, and the cutting of it with a knife (penis) by military leaders is symbolic rape. Phillip II was making the subtext the text. 2600:1702:1B41:5350:75B0:7B4A:B38A:FD47 (talk) 14:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)