Talk:Loughinisland massacre

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Crime and Criminal Biography: Serial, mass, and spree killers / Terrorism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Serial Killer task force (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by the Terrorism task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Ireland Low‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Northern Ireland Mid‑importance

	Northern Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Northern IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Northern IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Unionism in Ireland (defunct)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Unionism in Ireland, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Unionism in IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Unionism in IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Unionism in IrelandUnionism in Ireland articles

United Kingdom Low‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)
Neutrality: All editors on Troubles-related articles are directed to get the advice of neutral parties via means such as outside opinions.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 18, 2011, June 18, 2013, June 18, 2014, June 18, 2018, and June 18, 2024.

Proposed move

Since this article is solely about the 1994 shootings, I propose it be renamed to reflect that. The obvious choices are "Loughinisland killings" or "Loughinisland massacre". The title should be whichever is the most commonly used.
Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 03:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's been almost ten days without a reply, so I've decided to go ahead and move the article. A Google search throws up the following:

1,070 results for "Loughinisland massacre" + 8 results in Google Books
259 results for "Loughinisland murders" + 2 results in Google Books
254 results for "Loughinisland shootings" + 6 results in Google Books
109 results for "Loughinisland killings" + 6 results in Google Books

As "Loughinisland massacre" is by far the most popular name for this incident, that shall be the name of the article.
~Asarlaí 03:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Facts not fiction

So first of all we had the fictional claim that "members of the security forces took part in the killings", now there is the equally fictional, in the absence of sources that actually say it, claim that "members of the security forces knew the massacre was being planned". "members of the security forces" is a short, unambiguous phrase. It consists of five words, all in English, some of them only one syllable long. So it really is difficult to understand why such a simple, unambiguous phrase is persistently being misused to make claims which are not true? Perhaps someone could explain? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, you've misquoted what was actually written in the lead section before your revert. What it said was this:

The Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland is still, as of late 2010, investigating claims that members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) knew the massacre was being planned and failed to carry out a proper investigation.^[1]

And the reference (with the title "RUC informers knew about Loughinisland shootings") says:

A report into the police's handling of one of the last major atrocities of the Troubles will reveal that four security force agents were aware that the Ulster Volunteer Force was planning the Loughinisland massacre ... Security sources said this weekend that the investigation will highlight the role of informers inside the UVF who ordered or helped organise the attack on the Heights bar in June 1994.

~Asarlaí 16:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Security force agents," as you put it, are not members of the RUC. You cannot simply conflate the two without a source, and the source quoted does not say so. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 20:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I knew it was only a matter of hours before one of you came along. The title of that news article source is "RUC informers knew about Loughinisland shootings". I even added the full reference so everyone could see it. The article calls them "RUC informers" in the title but "security force agents" or just "informers" in the main body. The two An Phoblacht articles (^[2] and ^[3]) also notes that the security force agents/informers were working for the RUC. ~Asarlaí 20:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An "RUC informer" is not the same as a member of the RUC. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you've a problem with using "RUC members" for "RUC Special Branch agents" then the sentence can be changed to "...claims that Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) agents knew the massacre was being planned and that the RUC failed to carry out a proper investigation". ~Asarlaí 22:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Any objections? ~Asarlaí 23:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I object to the use of this ambiguous word "agent," as there is no evidence that they were "agents," merely informers. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 12:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since the word "agent" is itself ambiguous, and has a wholly different meaning in American English I strongly object to its use. It would seem to be the intention of Asarlaí to add false or misleading information to many articles, based on my experience. Contrary to the assertion above I did not misquote anyone, I merely quoted the salient part namely "members of the security forces". Since the people concerned were emphaticaly not "members of the security forces" and no reliable sources are claiming otherwise, that is why it is the salient part. "I knew it was only a matter of hours before one of you came along" - you should count yourself lucky your vandalism was not reverted sooner, recent changes patrollers seem to be slipping up these days. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They are called "RUC agents" in the sources, but if that's too ambiguous for you then it'll have to be "RUC informers". ~Asarlaí 16:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "RUC informers 'knew about Loughinisland shootings'". The Observer. 13 September 2009.
^ "Loughinisland massacre families at Westminster". An Phoblacht. 9 November 2006.
^ "Collusion and cover-up in Loughinisland massacre". An Phoblacht. 17 September 2009.

Victims list

I note the naming of the victims here- is that appropriate and within normal Wikipedia guidelines re "memorials"? But rather than removing the victims list here, I would first like to ask if anyone can provide a justification for retaining it?--Oneill1921 (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)Oneill1921[reply]

No it isn't per WP:NOTMEMORIAL Mo ainm~Talk 11:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTMEMORIAL seems to be principally concerned that articles not be created to memorialize persons known to editors. This doesn't include listing those killed in an notable event, such as this particular action by the UVF. And I do seem to recall quite a bit of coverage at the time regarding the advanced age of one of those killed. No, this information is useful and longstanding, and should not be removed. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 17:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree. A little biographical detail gives context. Its a longish list of names for an article, but not overly so. RashersTierney (talk) 20:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which UVF Brigade was responsible?

The article does not say, but which UVF brigade carried out the killings? I imagine it was the Mid-Ulster Brigade.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the Belfast Brigade may have carried it out.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:34, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A South Down UVF unit allegedly. There is a recent (2017) investigative film on this attack. TheSquareMile (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PIRA retaliation

The section "Provisional IRA retaliation" purported to establish a link between the murders at Loughinisland with a series of IRA killings giving p.231 of Peter Taylor's Loyalists as a reference. No such link is advanced by Taylor, or even raised in fact. The killing of Bratty is mentioned with reference to the UFF attack on the Sean Graham betting shop (Bratty had been briefly charged with this). The IRA killings were all of UDA members, while Loughinisland was carried out by the UVF. I have read virtually every published work on or about the UVF and many on the IRA and I cannot recall ever seeing the two linked. Any correlation would seem to be the conjecture of the editor. Shipyard Special (talk) 16:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Loughinisland massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:18, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Loughinisland massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110629120446/http://archives.tcm.ie/downdemocrat/2008/07/09/story4808.asp to http://archives.tcm.ie/downdemocrat/2008/07/09/story4808.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:23, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Observer-1] "RUC informers 'knew about Loughinisland shootings'". The Observer. 13 September 2009.

[anphoblacht16682-2] "Loughinisland massacre families at Westminster". An Phoblacht. 9 November 2006.

[anphoblacht38878-3] "Collusion and cover-up in Loughinisland massacre". An Phoblacht. 17 September 2009.

[1]

[2]

[3]