Talk:The Lennox

A dukedom or duchy? It was ruled by mormaers, so is it not a duchy? Is not the distinction between dukedom and duchy a matter of title vs established district? For this argument would have Brittany and Normandy duchies, but Guise and Aubigny were obviously not. Lord Loxley 15:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mormaers ruled mormaerdoms, or at least that's how it's put today. Mormaer is latinised as comes. The only person to be referred to as a dux in Scotland before the C14th/C15th is Mac Bethad mac Findlaích, so-called by Marianus Scotus, and that's probably in the same way that Earl Godwin was called a dux, by analogy with the position of the late Carolingian kings and the Dukes of the Franks. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But the question was; were mormaerdoms equivalent to say, the rather static polities such as Normandy, Brittany, Aquitaine, Burgundy or Wessex, Northumbria, Mercia and East Anglia? Does Lennox and/or any other district similar, have a sort of provincial status--with its own customs and courts, etc? Lord Loxley 11:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry for leading you on with the last question; I know Lennox was never like Munster or Strathclyde itself in scope. For instance, was a mormaerdom such as Lennox a "palatine county" like Durham or Chester...or rather a duchy like Cornwall and Lancaster? I'm wondering the equivalent in other countries. Lord Loxley 11:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The short and unhelpful answer is that it wasn't like anything in Norman England. Depending on which historical model you prefer, either it was a once-separate kingdom, like Mercia and Kent, some stem duchies and Scandinavian earldoms, or it was a royal creation, like Merovingian and Carolingian counties. In either case it had it's own courts, as did smaller entities, although probably not much in the way of distinctive laws.

Armed with a map, Lennox appears to be a geographical candidate for a Pictish county palatine/marcher lordship analogue in lands which may well have been part of Strathclyde at some point. On the other hand, that Lennox may have been a kingdom could be argued from sources which apparently refer to the "men of Lennox" at the Battle of the Standard, as this construction usually indicates a group with a separate identity. The Cogadh Gaedhil re Gallaibh also refers to Lennox in a list of peoples paying tribute: Saxons and Britons, and men of Lennox, and men of Alba, and men of Argyll. At some point, a genealogy connecting the Mormaers of Lennox to the Eóganachta was fabricated for reasons which aren't immediately apparent to me, or to the author who mentions it. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is Lennox the approximate successor state to Strathclyde? (I promise this to be the last query on the matter.) Lord Loxley 13:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lennox lies along the northern edge of Strathclyde. The last something-resembling-Strathclyde was future David I's appanage under Alexander I. The medieval Diocese of Glasgow corresponded more or less, but I can't say I've seen a map of that. No later lordship covered any great part of it, but I suppose the Mormaers/Earls of Carrick ruled the largest lordship carved out of Strathclyde. There's a map at Mormaer that shows the rough position in the C13th. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Lord Loxley 00:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify with regards to the map on the article, I created it, but it is only intended to be show roughly the district of Lennox as it was from the Early Modern ere until the Vicotrian era, much later than the time of the Picts etc so does not necessarily show the full extent of any previous mormaerdom, duchy, palatine/marcher lordship or the like. Some earlier maps do show it stretching further eastward and occupying a northern portion of the district of Clydesdale and the western part of district of Stirling. Benson85 23:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]