Talk:Asian Saga

Comments on the Article

First, these are novels, so I don't know what kind of references you are looking for someone to cite. Secondly, for people who haven't read the actual novels, someone needs to explain what a "tai-pan" is before diving into a whole list/discussion of them. Mr. Shoeless (talk) 16:33, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Plus, there should be something about critical reception, a summary of how the novels compare to historical events, etc. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Canonical list of former Tai-Pans

Short of digging up James Clavell and asking him, is there not a canonical list of Tai-Pans of the Noble House? There is a partial and hotly debated list in Noble House and some clues can be pulled in from other sources such as Gai-Jin. Did Clavell leave behind any notes, style guides, etc., or did the estate ever authorize anyone to write the definitive history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkendr (talk • contribs) 15:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

How did Linbar Struan become Tai-Pan?

How would Linbar Struan become Tai-Pan with all of his weakness? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.122.168.34 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 17 August 2005.

A quote from Noble House on the requirements for becoming tai-pan:

The tai-pan alone chooses his successor who shall be selected only from an Inner Court of six men. Of these, one shall be our compradore who shall, in perpetuity, be from the House of Chen. The other five shall be worthy to be tai-pan, shall be good men and true with at least five whole years of service in the Company as China Traders, and shall be wholesome in spirit. They must be Christian and must be kinsmen to the clan Struan by birth or marriage-my line and my brother Robb's line not taking precedence, unless by fortitude or qualities over and above all others.

It's entirely possible he was the only member of the Inner Circle who met all the requirements. Several other candidates were eliminated by death and by being suspected of espionage, if I remember the series correctly. JubalHarshaw 16:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Book order

The chronological pattern was represented ... "it is therefore possible to read them in virtually any order", huh? ... the published order is no where to be found ... but is important. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 23skidoo (talk • contribs) 01:38, 21 March 2006.

You're right. I'm going to rearrange them into order of publication. Since they're not necessarily meant to be read in the order they take place anyway, this seems like a more natural listing than the current one. Binabik80 (talk) 21:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Origins and Officialness of "Asian Saga" Not Cited

It isn't at all clear where and when the term "Asian Saga" comes from and a few Google searches have turned up no information. Thus, I added a "citation needed" flag to the article. A lot of instances of the term on the Web simply point to Wikipedia as its origin which isn't much of a citation since someone could have just made it up.

The article should state what the origin of the term is. Was it a publisher? Was it Clavell himself? Has this term appeared on or in any of the actual printings of the books? (It doesn't appear at all on or in my edition of Shogun (ISBN-10: 0-440-17800-2).)

How official is this term? If it's not endorsed by a publisher or from the author itself, the article should term it "unofficial".

Other than stating that this term was used after Shogun was published, it also provides no time-frame for its use nor is the source for that vague time-frame cited.

—Patrick Garies 06:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

My copies of the books (only have Gai-Jin on me at the moment, but it was the '94 edition) says "The Asian Saga" on the side. I can't speak for the origins, but it is an official or semi-official title of the series. Certainly the best we have. 72.226.54.235 (talk) 06:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

note 3

"The two Scragger boys are Frederick (a Eurasian) and Albert (a pure blooded Englishman).[2] In their papers, Dirk Struan wrote down a name for the boys. The Eurasian Albert was originally given "Albert Chen," but the European Frederick insisted they be given the same name." That's contradicting itself -- who was Eurasian? (Haven't got the book here, maybe someone else can take a quick peek) Also, I noticed that the name "Scragger" returns in "Whirlwind" as one of the pilots (an Australian). This could be another easter egg connection... Too bad Clavell didn't leave a lot of notes like Tolkien, his "universe" is nearly as complex. --84.164.98.89 (talk) 13:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Moved from the article

Lochlin Struan became tai-pan for a second time after Kelly O'Gorman, the fifth tai-pan, was killed as he tried to murder Tess Struan, and so Lochlin Struan became the sixth tai-pan, but totally under the thumb of Tess Struan, until his death in 1915. It is not explained how O'Gorman, whose name is presumably Irish, was permitted to assume the top post of Struan's as Dirk Struan had specified that the leader must be of Scottish descent and "kin to the clan Struan."

• Counter notes (note #1 NOBLE HOUSE states that O'Gorman is a grandson of the Tess Straun; he was tai-pan in name only -he should not even be in the list; Lochlin should be the 3rd and 5th, not 6th, tai-pan. Ross Lechie Struan is the 6th tai-pan; there must be another ROSS STRUAN in the list, presumably, Alastair's father -because Clavell stated in NOBLE HOUSE that "Old Hawk Nose" also called Old tai-pan, Alastair's father, was the very first tai-pan Ian Dunross can remember and that his name is also Ross Struan. He must be the 7th tai-pan not read by Casey Tcholok from the long gallery; later he was referred to as Sir Ross Struan implying that he lived long enough to be knighted. This could not possibly be the ROSS LECHIE of the list because he died in the First World War. Moreover, Ian Dunross was born in the 1920s -he's 41 years old in 1963, so he's presumably born in 1922. It's not possible for him to 'remember' ROSS LECHIE because he died long before Dunross was born; we can only assume that Alastair's father, ROSS STRUAN, is another member of the Struan family and that he became tai-pan after ROSS LECHIE -after all, Robb Struan had two sons to follow him, Roddy and Sir Lochlin. As James Clavell did not leave a clear list of tai-pans, fans can only speculate and calculate for themselves; a calculation of Alastair's and Ian Dunross's age and a consultation of the partial list in NOBLE HOUSE will support the two ROSS STRUAN theory.
• note #2 Dirk's Legacy did not specifically mention Scottish descent as a requirement, merely that the candidate be Christian, a kinsman, by blood or marriage, and of wholesome spirit -Jacques deVille is French and yet he was a member of the Inner Circle and was considered a contender; Paul "Profitable" Choy is pure Chinese but he was inducted by the weak Linbar Struan to the Inner Circle when Choy married one of Linbar's daughters and converted to Christianity
• note # 3 The MacStruans are not related in any way to the Struans, Dunrosses or the Chens. As part of the coin favor of Wu Fang-Sang, Dirk Struan agreed to finance and support the education of three young boys. The three turned out to be a grandson of Wu Fang (he is never heard of again), and the two sons of the pirate Scragger. The two Scragger boys are Frederick (a Eurasian) and Albert (a pure blooded Englishman). In their papers, Dirk Struan wrote down a name for the boys. The Eurasian Albert was originally given "Albert Chen," but the European Frederick insisted they be given the same name. Struan gave them the clan name MacStruan. It is implied in GAI-JIN that the two are eventually adopted into the Clan Struan. Albert became "Shang-hai Albert", manager of the Noble House in Shang-hai and later in Japan while Frederick became Sir Frederick MacStruan with a seat in Parliament. Even then there were rumours among the staff of the Noble House that they are "illegitimate children" of Dirk Struan and Mary Sinclair and that The Hag, Tess Struan, hated them. Whatever the rumors were, The Hag's LEGACY stated that the MacStruans were considered for the position of tai-pan but were not yet ready. David MacStruan was the choice of Ian Dunross and from what Jacques deVille says of him, he is quite capable for the position. It remains a mystery how MacStruan could have chosen Linbar Struan as his successor before his untimely, and highly suspicious, death. WHIRLWIND gives an account of how an affidavit stating Linbar's selection was found literally "lying around" the dead MacStruan's office. The mystery of his death and the possible involvement of Paul Choy, Linbar Struan and a Japanese businessman is one of the subplots of the novel with Ian Dunross working "behind the scenes" to unravel the mystery.)

Hag Struan was tai-pan in everything but name from 1841 until her death in 1917. She assumed "the power behind the throne" due to Culum's weaknesses (GAI-JIN implies that Culum became an alcoholic and died of stroke) and her apparent affection for Dirk Struan's memory.

• note # 4 From GAI-JIN, it is clearly a requirement that the tai-pan must be at least 21 years old to succeed to the position. Since NOBLE HOUSE gives Dirk Dunross's birth year as 1852, he presumably officially became tai-pan in 1873. According to NOBLE HOUSE, Ross Lechie Struan was born in 1887, so he likely succeeded as tai-pan in 1908. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.166.215.220 (talk) 09:21, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Should "captain" be "chaplain"?

I've not yet read most of the books but in the article I note "the captain who married Malcolm Struan and Angelique Richaud". Should that actually be "chaplain"? MarkMLl (talk) 20:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

No, they were married on shipboard by the ship's captain.Czrisher (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Missing Reference?

Asian_Saga#List of tai pans of Struan's reads that Kelly O'Gorman was tai-pan in name only and to see the note. However, the notes were removed (and, yes, placed here on the talk page). I would do some cleanup but I no longer have the novels in my library. Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 23:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)