Talk:THSR 700T

This is not a Japanese rail stub, its a Taiwanese rail stub. THe 700T-series shinkansen will only run in Taiwan. I propose it be moved back to rail-stub. Paullb 11:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Re-naming

The current title of the article is definitely problematic. I think it should be moved at least to "Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T Series" or "Taiwan High Speed Rail Class 700T". But, analogous to the various articles on train types of operators Deutsche Bahn or East Japan Railway Company or Ferrovie dello Stato, it would be even better to use just an acronym, in which case the possibilities are: "THSR Class 700T", "THSR 700T Series" "THSRC Class 700T" and "THSRC 700T Series". I'd favour the last one. --Rontombontom (talk) 19:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Based on sources used in the article (especially the Kawasaki ones), I think current name is fairly accurate. However, I can see what the problems are, and agree with you about shortening it down to an acronym. My vote would be for a simple "THSR 700T Series", since wouldn't it make more sense to name it based on the system that uses it rather than the company running the system (e.g. 700 Series Shinkansen)? -Multivariable (talk) 06:30, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the usage in Kawasaki documents is inofficial language, similar to Alstom writing "the Korean TGV" for KTX-I. In addition, if you look at this source document, while our train is identified by a Kawasaki rep as "Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T", they also write about a "Ministry of Railway of China CRH2", mixing up the state company that is the operator and the ministry controlling it.

Regarding system vs. operator, usage is debatable. In places where vehicles of multiple operators can run on the same track, an acronym or code representing the operator's name is part of the vehicle registration number; and class/series names include it in analogy (e.g. RENFE Class 130, DBAG Class 101, FS Class E464). I think identification by system only occurs on some isolated networks, like MRT systems. But THSR is an isolated network.

However, for mainline vehicles, I can't think of any good example here on Wikipedia which include networks in the article title. With the Shinkansen trains, we have the situation that multiple operators use the same series designations, making operator-designated articles unreasonable; and in ordering the name with "Shinkansen" last, the intent is probably not to refer to the network, but to a train family. Also see 701 series, a non-Shinkansen train type used by multiple operators in Japan (and manufactured by both Kawasaki and JR East's own works). --Rontombontom (talk) 08:27, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

On further research, looks like the full name "Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T train" is used on the official web site. [1] I guess I would be fine with either "THSR 700T Series" or "THSRC 700T Series", though the former would probably be preferred just based on common usage (see Google searches). Don't some of the KTX rolling stocks include "KTX" in the title, though? -Multivariable (talk) 09:21, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

KTX is not a (physical) network name, but both a service and a rolling stock type name - similar to Germany's ICE and France's TGV. (In contrast, "Shinkansen", as far as I know, is really referring to the railway infrastucture, and services have names like Hikari.) In the use of operator name for articles on rolling stock, Wikipedia is somewhat inconsequential here, with SNCF TGV Duplex but ICE 2 rather than "DBAG ICE 2".

Based on Google hits ("THSRC 700T" turns up 291 hits, "THSR 700T" turns up 5530 even without Wikipedia) and THSRC's own usage, I can accept "THSR 700T Series". But I feel more opinions than two would be needed -- I'll try to ask in the Trains project (though it seems dead). --Rontombontom (talk) 10:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, WikiProject Trains has its own style goide, and the point applicable is "Articles about a specific class of equipment used by a specific railroad company should be named with the most common company and class names (such as PRR K4s)". However, the style guide is totally US-centric. I'm still gonna ask there. --Rontombontom (talk) 10:28, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for being on top of this, since I really don't know too much about rolling stock naming (or just rail networks in general XD). -Multivariable (talk) 00:19, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Google hits

Well, asking WikiProject Trains didn't led to much. So I did a comprehensive Google search, always with "-wikipedia -wiki -wapedia -wikimedia -encyclopedia" appended. The results:

Written-out search term	Google hits		Acronym search term	Google hits
"Taiwan High Speed 700T train"	4460
"Taiwan High Speed 700T Series"	0
"Taiwan High Speed 700T Class"	0
"Taiwan High Speed 700T"	28,200
"Taiwan High Speed Class 700T"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Series 700T"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Train 700T"	7
"Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T Train"	5590		"THSR 700T Train"	7
"Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T Series"	7		"THSR 700T Series"	1680
"Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T Class"	0		"THSR 700T Class"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T"	13,400		"THSR 700T"	6,180
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Class 700T"	0		"THSR Class 700T"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Series 700T"	68		"THSR Series 700T"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Train 700T"	2590		"THSR Train 700T"	61
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation 700T Train"	1		"THSRC 700T Train"	6
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation 700T Series"	2		"THSRC 700T Series"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation 700T Class"	0		"THSRC 700T Class"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation 700T"	3		"THSRC 700T"	199
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation Class 700T"	0		"THSRC Class 700T"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation Series 700T"	0		"THSRC Series 700T"	0
"Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation Train 700T"	0		"THSRC Train 700T"	0

Most hits are for the definitely unacceptable long form without "rail", but it appears to me that most originate either in that Kawasaki media release or Wikipedia. Versions with the company name/acronym are definitely out, and so are versions with class. In what remains there is the odd asymmetry between the written-out and acronym forms: "Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T Train" vs. "THSR 700T Series"; and the apparent dominance over either by the designation without train/class. Then again, most hits still appear to be low-quality and not independent, whatever the search term. I will explore further and will try to narrow down searches before making a final proposal on the move. --Rontombontom (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Some findings:

• Excluding Kato and ebay eliminates the "...Train 700T" versions almost completely.
• On a closer look, those "...700T Train" hits that aren't obvious Wikipedia plagiarisms are actually almost always "...700T train" hits, meaning that "train" is not treated as part of the type designation -- this applies to the occurrence on THSRC's own English-language page, too.
• Railway Gazette International, which I consider a Reliable Source, consistently refers to the type as "Series 700T". But that's them alone... meanwhile, a lot of the "700T Series" are either without caps and/or add "Shinkansen". English-language Taiwanese sources don't seem to use "series".
• In English-language Taiwanese sources, the most preferred seems to be the somewhat odd "model". Taipei Times uses a mix of incorrect uncapped versions (carriage, car, locomotive) in addition to train and model, but either version is rarely capped, and it appears that the Chinese-language designation translates to "700T type".

All this would leave a choice between "Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T" and "THSR 700T". --Rontombontom (talk) 23:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Doing a search for the network name, restricted by "-wiki -wikipedia -encyclopedia -amazon -ebay -kato -wikimedia -wapedia -torrent -dvdrip", I get 287,000 hits for the "THSR" acronym and 265,000 for the written-out "Taiwan High Speed Rail". Based on this, the acronym is common enough, and I'm going to stick with "THSR 700T". I think I'm in line with the five general Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title principles, too. If there are no protests in 24 hours, I'll do the move, and also create a redirect at "Taiwan High Speed Rail 700T". --Rontombontom (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Kudos for the hard work in finding out common usages! -Multivariable (talk) 20:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Brakes

I removed the following addition to the article: "double trainlines for power and brake control, insufficient brake detection without imposing the auto emergency stopping(due to safety vital reason)". For the claim of separate power and brake control lines, if this is a difference from Japanese Shinkansens, a source would be needed. I can't make sense of the rest of the sentence. Could someone who has a clue re-phrase (and again source) that? --Rontombontom (talk) 11:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

In 700T, the cruise control is not a part of ATC, it is the scope of CI control software. The ATC can not engage it. Please do not misunderstand... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.8.17.220 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Could you explain in greater detail, and give a source correcting the claimed mistake of the JRTR article cited that says cruise control is done by the ATC? Just to go for certain: do you read cruise control to mean the control of speed (e.g. 300 km/h where it is allowed, less where less is allowed; normally a basic train control function which includes the ATC's intervention in traction control)?

In addition, to avoid confusion, please add your comment below other commenters' signature and sign it with four tildes (~~~~). --Rontombontom (talk) 18:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The JRTR does not state the Cruise Control is done by ATC, and it mentioned "Constant Speed Control" for Cruise Control in page 44. In fact, the ATC is only designed to brake the train properly without any powering function in both JR and THSRC Systems. I do believe it's better to separate the cruise control and ATC. 60.251.236.1 (talk) 01:54, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

First, irrespective of the source, if you are familiar with the cruise control system, can you precisify what it does? Is it a manually set system in which the driver sets the speed which is then maintained by traction control (the one version which would not need integration with the ATC), or an automatic safety system which overrules the driver controls if the train speed exceeds the line speed set for each track section by the safety margin, or a semi-automatic system combining both functions (as in the ATC of the German ICE trains which was likely to have been the basis of THSRC's specifications)?

Second, what you find on page 44 of the JRTR article is a table listing the differences between the standard Shinkansen and the THSR systems, and it indeed doesn't define which feature is or isn't controlled via the ATC. However, on page 43, it's explicit in the text: "The train speed (300 km/h max.) and route are protected by an Automatic Train Control (ATC) system." It may well be the case that the author of the JRTR article erred. However, JRTR is a professional publication and the author is a Japanese rail industry top manager who served as advisor to THSRC, thus if he was wrong, a correction in the Wikipedia article needs another reliable source.

Third, if you are familiar with the 700T train, could you perhaps name the motor type (something like "MT106"), and perhaps give a reliable source (e.g. not an encyclopedia, not a fan site, not a paper that itself references Wikipedia; but preferably a technical publication) that calls it a three-phase asynchronous (squirrel-cage) induction motor? (This THSRC-affiliated source specifies synchronous motor, but I increasingly doubt that the source is correct.) --Rontombontom (talk) 12:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

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