Talk:Turkvision Song Contest 2013

Page creation issues

Seeming that this page has been created, what details of the contest do we think should be on this page? Because at the minute I don't think the table looks great filled with all of the TBA's, in my opinion it would look far better if it was empty. Also the article needs to have the logo of the contest placed on it, as currently it lacks it. (Moldova96 (talk) 12:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC))

I only just stumbled across the page being created purely through looking for something else. The page wasn't exactly created in accordance to layout styles used throughout WP:ESC. Date formats were incorrect, we definitely do not fill every gap with TBA's, and the incorrect infobox template was used, and finally this very talk page was not tagged with project banners. Anyhow, I've done a major clean up and corrected all those issues. Wesley Mᴥuse 10:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Tunzale Agayeva as far as I am aware is not the Azerbaijani entry to Turkvision, as Eurovoix have reported that Azerbaijan are holding a national selection to select their Turkvision entry. Moldova96 (talk) 14:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Crimea and Ukraine

The Eurovoix source that says Fazile Ibraimova will represent Ukraine has no confirmation. The article linked on their website from the Crimean News Agency says that Ibraimova will represent Crimea and not Ukraine. The Türkvizyon official website has the same information here. The news on the Türkvizyon website does say, however, that more representatives will be chosen for Crimea. One will probably be for Ukraine, and one for Crimea, but I would avoid anything definitive until we get another confirming source.

In a related issue, I am pretty sure we can't take this source as definitive for the song selected as, in Eurovoix's own words, "This is thought to be Fazile’s Türkvizyon entry, it is called “Cеведжем” which means “Savage”" (emphasis mine). The entry is not confirmed at all. I'll be removing this from the page right now. There is a different song linked on the official Türkvizyon website, "Doktor Civanım", here, and I'm not sure if that's the entry or not.

Can we get a Turkish translator to figure this out? Mr. Gerbear|Talk 21:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've been looking and Fazile being the Ukraine's entry makes sense, from what I can see Crimea are holding a national selection to choose their entrant, so Fazile cannot be their entrant. Seeming that the source comes from QHA which is the affiliated with the broadcaster doing the contest in Crimea, and they have said this is the case it is more than likely correct.

The video on the Turkvizyon website is from when Fazile won the Eastern Bazaar, which initially meant should would represent Crimea, however this has not changed. The view that the song "Cеведжем" is their entry is based off of the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN78ZPxAg6s which uses the official video for the song as the clip for Ukraine. Also the Turkvizyon website is incredibly slow at getting news up, Eurovoix seems to be the biggest source for Turkvizyon news, as the official website has not even talked about any of the national selection processes. I'd recommend emailing QHA to get confirmation of the news from them, as that would clear up the situation. (Moldova96 (talk) 21:11, 5 November 2013 (UTC))

Might be worthwhile contacting a member of Wikipedia:Translation who will happily translate any document/source upon request. Wesley Mᴥuse 23:58, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm now convinced that Fazile's song is Savage, as CMA is the broadcaster in charge of the Crimean selection and the one that has created all the adverts for the selection in Crimea. And the song is the only song that is on full and has been filmed by CMA. Moldova96 (talk) 17:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

We cannot just assume that is the song, Moldova96. You're wandering into original research on that theory. Remember the vitalities here, reliable sources which verify our citations and do not violate original research. Wesley Mᴥuse 22:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've only just noticed that you mentioned about emailing QHA. If you did and then were to use the information as a source, it could potentially be in breach of no original research. Primarily because how would you cite the email as verification? Only you have access to your personal email inbox, so everyone else wouldn't be able to verify the citation. Wesley Mᴥuse 03:12, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Turkmenistan

Myahri has been added as Turkmenistan's participant, I've looked for the past 30 minutes but cannot find any source as to the news about her being selected to represent Turkmenistan. Should it be removed? (Moldova96 (talk) 19:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC))

I think a bit of common logic should be applied in this case. If we cannot find a citation from a reliable source to verify any content, then it should either be removed or the {{cn}} template used. Wesley Mᴥuse 10:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Kazakhstan

I'm slightly concerned that there are three reliable sources all stating a different participant as representing the nation.

1. Turkvizton's official website say it's Luina.
2. Eurovoix website say it is Rin'go.
3. Kazakh news sites say it is Aikyn.

Surely there cannot be three? It doesn't help when we are limited on sources for this contest, with it being new and all. Wondering if we should wait longer, to see if the confusion resolves itself, and we establish accurate details. Especially for the fact we are dealing with living people here. WP:BLP are serious cases on Wikipedia, and ones that need to be dealt with caution. Wesley Mᴥuse 18:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

• From what I understand is, Turkvision jumped the gun and got drawn in by a video that I saw that said that Luina on Wednesday or so was the Turkvizyon entrant for Kazakhstan. The 2nd one is the correct one. Whilst the third one reffers to a further 3 acts being allowed to take part in the national final. Moldova96 (talk) 20:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

• I think we still need to be cautious. We are dealing with BLP's here which have to be 100% accurate in an article to avoid factual errors. This is outlined at WP:BLPSOURCES and WP:GRAPEVINE. Eurovoix isn't even an official website for Turkvizyon, only a fan site operated by one person alone. We're going to need to find more sources to validate one of the above listed, then we will know which act is correct. I'm not prepare to run the risk of BLP violations, sorry, but I have to be cautious. Wesley Mᴥuse 21:06, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

• Eureka, official confirmation. Panic over, although one cannot frown at me for being cautious with BLP's. They are mean things to mess about with :-( Wesley Mᴥuse 03:02, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

The map is bad

Why don't you put in the other regions which can participate in grey on the map? It would make more sense if you did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.81.225 (talk) 07:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Because there are no sources to verify what other countries are legible to participate. The current version is fine as it is. If other regions join in the future, then the map would be modified at that time, not before. Wesley Mᴥuse 11:27, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok. You sertenly do a good job at pages like this one! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.81.225 (talk) 09:22, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

TRT vs. Kral

According to the official website http://www.turkvision.info/On-Which-TV-Channels-Is-Turkvision-Broadcasted-All-Countries-5-h.htm , the broadcaster for Turkey is Kral not TRT. Arved (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

TRT are the ones organising the whole event, but Kral are the ones who will broadcast the event for Turkish TV. It could be a case of scheduling problems that a different station is broadcasting the live shows. But situations like this are not rare. Take Junior Eurovision for example. ITV organised the UK selections on ITV 1, yet the live shows where on ITV 2. Wesley Mᴥuse 17:18, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Kabardino-Balkaria

Despite the fact they are not on the initial published list of participating countries/regions, Kabardino-Balkaria is also participating they will participate in Türkvizyon. They are holding auditions today. You can find an article here and a promotion video here. Dinsdagskind (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The official Turkvision page do not have them listed, although they have been rather slow at updating lately. I'm inclined to wait for more sources to verify, as it is becoming extremely dodgy taking every word of verification from one source only. Not that Euroviox aren't reliable, just saying that it is preferred to be seen using a variety of sources and not just the same ones. Wes Mᴥuse 10:48, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I was looking at this earlier and an Eskisehir 2013 article says that there are 23 countries taking part in the contest. The article says "Grand Final nears, participate in contests held in 23 countries will be eligible to compete in qualifying countries in Eskisehir finalists have also started to be determined." Link is here: http://www.eskisehir2013.org.tr/index.php/tr/haberler/984-turkvizyon-a-yavru-vatandan-gommalar-geliyor. Also it appears that Romania are also taking part: http://eurovoix.com/2013/12/02/romania-are-taking-part-in-turkvizyon/. Moldova96 (talk) 20:15, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, slow it down. We are all forgetting one vital issue here. Moldova96, you seem to keep relying on Eurovoix as the main source of correct information. By doing so, it puts this article at the risk of failing WP:GNG, due to the fact that we relying solely on the say-so of one source. Thus the deletionists out there would easily have grounds to get this article deleted. This is why I keep trying to point out to you how we should not be relying just on what Eurovoix publish and treat their word as gospel truth. Feel free to learn more at WP:SPIP and WP:OWNSITE for further clarification on this. Wes Mᴥuse 21:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I apologise sorry about that, it just seems that there aren't really any other English language websites covering the contest Moldova96 (talk) 17:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

No need to apologise, I wasn't sure if you understood why I was so concerned at us using only one source and treating their word as 100% accuracy. I hope now that I've provided guidance that you do see why I was concerned. I, like yourself, would be deeply upset if this article were to get deleted for the sake of us using one website source only. All that hard work to be for nothing would not be right. I agree that it is not easy when there is only one English language website covering the contest, but with Turkvizyon.info (which is also in English) then we'd get away with using both as sources. I went through the same when the ABU Festivals first started off. The only website at the time was ESCkaz doing everything (a bit like Eurovoix are doing for Turkvision). But with a bit of patience I googled searched and checked every result page until I finally found other sources that were in English, so that we had a mixture. Sometimes going that extra mile in our research does pay-off and helps to produce a high standard article. One good suggestion would be to see if any of the national broadcasters have anything published. Even if they are in a different language, we are still able to provide a |trans_title= in the {{cite web}}. But as long as we have a variety of sources, then we help to save the article from the hands of those how would happily see it deleted for good. Wes Mᴥuse 19:07, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Sources reliability

Moved from User talk:Wesley Mouse § Türkvizyon 2013

 – Wes Mᴥuse 12:50, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that we can consider the official website of the contest reliable, there have been multiple cases of wrong information found there. First, they said that the Kazakhstani entry is Qalayşa by Luina, which was not true. Second, they said Uzbekistan would be represented by Shahzoda, which was not true again. The third and I think most important thing is that in the site it says that in some countries like Turkmenistan the contest would be broadcasted by "The Channel TBC", which clearly shows that they have copied this info from Wikipedia and have no idea what TBC means.

Considering all this, I'm not at all convinced that Macedonian and Northern Cypriot entries are Düşlerde Yaşamak and Ayrıntılar. First, the song Düşlerde Yaşamak is an old song, released in 2010 by the band Bal ve Kan, and I have enough reason to think that the only reason it ended up in the official site is the fact that it was on the Eurovoix page telling who the Macedonian participant is. That page clearly says that the Macedonian entry is called Ağlama Benim İçin, but the video of Luina said that it was one of the national finalists as well, that didn't prevent it from being shown as the Kazakh participant.

I don't think the Northern Cypriot song is Ayrıntılar either, because there is a video on YouTube that shows Grup Gommalar singing a song called Ayrıntılar in the Northern Cypriot national final but the song they sing there is an old song too, it's a 2010 song of Bülent Ortaçgil. I believe they saw that video and simply assumed that that song was the Northern Cypriot entry. amateur (talk) 02:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You do realise that you're making a very serious allegation about an official website by stating they are copying text from Wikipedia, right? We have to assume good faith here in that the editors of the official page are correct, even if we may think they are wrong or "copying". The fact of the matter is we have nothing else to double-check things. There's only the official website and Eurovoix (which is only operated by one editor, thus making it borderline fan-blog). As for the song titles you mentioned, there is nothing to say that two different songs with the same title have been written. For example, the song "What if" has been a title for 3 different artists, and neither of them are the same lyrical-worded songs - What If (Kate Winslet song); What If (Dina Garipova song); What If (Friends song); What If (Jason Derulo song).

If we remove all links from Turkvizyon.com, then the article would have to be nominated for deletion, as it is relying solely on one source website only. One needs to think of that aspect here too. If Turkvizyon and Eurovoix sources are conflicting, then neither of them should be used, until other sources can be found to verify what Turkvizyon or Eurovoix are reporting. And then we'd end up with an article that has no sources, and thus would be deleted immediately on the grounds of being a hoax article. Wes Mᴥuse 02:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Also with the website saying "Channel TBC", you may be overlooking into how this may be referring to. We're dealing with written text that has no vocal sound/expression. There could well be a pause between the words Channel and TBC, which would change the definition from it meaning a channel called TBC, to a channel that is to be announce (Channel TBC). Wes Mᴥuse 02:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

No, they call the brodcaster "TBC televizyonu" in Turkish, which means "TBC TV", and there is no other way to translate it. Another fact: They are still referring İlkay Yusuf as "Ikay Yusuf", despite the very fact that İlkay is a common Turkish name. The only reason they call him Ikay must be Eurovoix's typo on their news about the Macedonian entry. In their YouTube account they posted a video of the Kazakh entry that I made, and there is nothing suggesting they know anything more than we do about the contest. That website is updated by searching the web for information, which is the same thing as we do. amateur (talk) 03:30, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Wait, apparently I'm wrong on this one and he is indeed called Ikay. In that case, the info we have here is wrong and should be corrected. amateur (talk) 03:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

This is why it is difficult to determine what if factual. There are only two websites dealing with Turkvision. Because nobody else has published anything, we have nothing else to verify who is right or wrong from the two websites. We cannot assume the Turkvision website are copying text from Wikipedia, without 100% solid evidence. What you are suggesting is a serious allegation to make, you do realise that, right? Wes Mᴥuse 11:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Before we continue further with this discussion, I think it is best that we familiarise ourselves with some vital guidances and Wiki-Policies. In order to keep within WP:GNG, we need to avoid WP:1R, WP:SPIP, WP:OWNSITE, and WP:OR. To say that Turkvizon's website is copying from Wikipedia is a serious allegation to make. If proven to be the case, then we are solely relying on one wesbite (Eurovoix), which is operated and published by one editor only. This then adds further doubts on general notability of the topic, such as is the editor of Eurovoix publishing original research. There are no other secondary sources to verify which of the two current sources are publishing the truth. So this in turn puts the article at risk of deletion because we have no evidence to determine which of the sources are self-publishing. If we cannot resolve this rapidly, then it would be with deep regret that this article and articles relating to it, be nominated for deletion for failing to meet notability. Wes Mᴥuse 14:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Unfortunately Amateur55 (talk · contribs) your allegation that the Turkvizyon website have copied Wikipedia is 100% false. Turkvision published the list of broadcasting channels on 18 October 2013. 2 days after the official website's publication, Moldova96 (talk · contribs) updated this article with broadcasting channels on 20 October 2013 none of which had "TBC" listed on this article. I updated the article further on 25 October 2013, again there were no TBC's listed. It was not until 10 November 2013, under one month after the official website's publication, when I added TBC's to the list of broadcasters. So it is chronologically impossible that the official website could have copied Wikipedia when we didn't even have a broadcasting list published at the time of the website's publication. Wes Mᴥuse 12:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

It does appear that the spelling was wrong the Macedonian entry, although the Ilkay Yusuf person is real as they are on both Facebook and Twitter and have said that they are taking part in Turkvizyon. The website official website has been very poor at getting things right, it does seem that they do to a point copy what Eurovoix posts. The major issue with the contest and source reliability is that there is just so little coming out that is very specific. We hear about artists and song names, but most we have no idea what the song is called or who the channel is that is taking part in the contest. Why not use the sources that Eurovoix states for their news or use Eurovoix and their source together so that you get both an English & other language source for each? Moldova96 (talk) 17:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

That's what we should be doing in the first place, Moldova96. Use as many sources as possible. But the issue here is Amateur55 made serious allegation that the official website copied Wikipedia. I have provided evidence above to show that they have not copied Wikipedia, so their allegation needs to be withdrawn. Wes Mᴥuse 02:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Issues with final list

The final list of participants has been updated on Turkvizyon.info, which Eurovoix confirms. This gives us a bunch of stuff to be done:

1. Russia, Turkmenistan, Xinjiang and Chuvashia will not be participating. Should their individual pages be deleted, or edited to say that they had withdrawn?
2. Kabardino-Balkaria and Karachay-Cherkessia are competing jointly, after a joint selection with participants from both regions. [1] Should the individual pages be merged? The table's so stretched out now because of their name. :(
3. The Kirkuk Turkmen in Iraq have sent a representative. Should the flag be of Iraq (which I did as a placeholder), or that of the Iraqi Turkmen? Also, the Türkvizyon page says "Kirkuk Turkmen" and not "Iraqi Turkmen", but Eurovoix says "Iraqi Turkmen", which is why I refrained from making their own page.
4. The Shor people of Kemerovo Oblast have sent a representative. The Shor people don't have their own flag, nor do they have their own political entity unlike the Iraqi Turkmen, so I'm not sure how their separate page should be named. Also, I'm not sure if using the flag of Kemerovo Oblast would be accurate, but I put that on the table for the sake of completeness.

I think consensus would be needed before any of the above would be decided. Please do share your thoughts here. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 18:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Both people have flags. See Russian interwiki. ← Alejandro de Grande ^talk 08:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

OK a few good pointers there, which I have been deliberating over myself.

1. Pages for Russia, Turkmenistan, Xinjiang, and Chuvashia, is questionable. Some would say delete. But as they were intentionally going to participate, then I'd say their pages should remain - but updated to reflect the facts they were going to participate and the reasons why they withdrew. All with sources of course.
2. Yes their pages should be merged. But with two regional names, this could become tricky. Do we know if there is a joint regional name for these two? If so, would it not be better that we used the joint name?
3. The Iraqi Turkmen flag should be used really. If the region is commonly known as Kirkuk Turkmen, then that is what we should be using.
4. If the Shor people do not have their own flag, then use the regional area of Kemerovo Oblast's flag. Which is shown on Turkvizyon's website anyway.

I'll rattle my brain a bit more to think of any problem solving for the more complexed issues. AxG (talk · contribs) will fix the participation map in due course, too. Wes Mᴥuse 09:00, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Right, I've looked further into these issues. On the main article Türkvizyon Song Contest, we could ideally create a sub-section entitled "Unsuccessful attempts to participate", where we can then mention Russia, Chuvasia, Xinjiang, and Turkmenistan. Then we'd redirect the associated articles to this new area. As the Shori people are from the Kemerovo Oblast region, then it is better to list them as Kemerovo (which I have been bold in doing so) and have created the respective article for them. And I have done the same for Kirkuk Turkmen too. Articles for Tuva, Kosovo, and Khakassia did not have their respective talk pages completed - I have now rectified this issue. Also this article had Kirkuk placed in-between Crimea and Georgia, when in actual fact they should have been placed between Khakassia and Kosovo - again I have fixed this error. All in all, the article itself now looks better reflecting teh facts as they currently stand. Wes Mᴥuse 09:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the work. However, I can't agree with the Shors being labeled as Kemerovo. Neither Eurovoix nor Turkvision.info list them as "Kemerovo". Besides, Shors are a minority in the region. Still, we'll have to label them as they are presented on the day of the show itself. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 19:46, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a problem then. There is no article that I could find on the Shor region, only on the Shor People. And that latter article states they are a minority collective of people who live in Kemerovo. So political correctness and naming conventions would reside that Kemerovo is the correct location at this present time to use. Besides we're using that flag too. There is nothing wrong in using a footnote to explain any confusion, and writing something on Kemerovo's Turkvision article about the Shor people. To me, that would be a win-win compromise and covers all aspects. Wes Mᴥuse 12:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Shoria is the Mountaineous country where concentrated Shors people. See this article. ← Alejandro de Grande ^talk 08:15, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

• Both Eurovoix and Turkvizyon websits have dropped Karachay-Cherkessia from their lists and only have Kabardino-Balkaria as the region. Do we assume Karachay are now unsuccessful participants? Wes Mᴥuse 12:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm watching Türkvizyon right now, and the running order is all over the place. Also, Kirkuk is performing as Iraq, with the Iraq flag and everything. I also believe they mentioned "Kemerovo" and not "Shoria" in the opening roll-call thing, but let's wait until it's their turn. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 17:31, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Update: Kabardino-Balkaria and Karachay-Cherkessia still performed jointly. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 17:36, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Moar update: The Shor lady represented "Kemerov Eyaleti Dağlık Şor Bölgesi'ni", so Kemerovo should be accurate enough. Although it technically translates to "the Mountainous Shor region in Kemerovo Oblast". Mr. Gerbear|Talk 18:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Another update: Yakutia performed as Sakha Republic, because they came after Romania in the running order (which is alphabetical). Not sure if we should do anything about that though. Mr. Gerbear|Talk 18:36, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Difficulties

I've been doing the editing of the Norwegian article for this competition. I found this a hard nut because of lack of information and also because of the changing information received. I noticed half a week before the contest that the Turkish version of the official website had more detailed and updated information, but I don't speak Turkish, so not much helpfull. Hopefully this is first time event difficulties. Hopefully there will be a set date for participants next year, and more updating information. This year there were serious changes up towards a couple of days before the competition was taking place. I have one small and one big question I have a hope to get answered. The English community is bigger than the Norwegian, so hopes of getting answers would be higher here:

• The small question: What is the venue for the competition (or: what is the stadion/consert hall named)?
• The big question (posted on the Norwegian site for discussion): I've seen articles that hints towards the fact that this is a competition that has been held since 2009, just with a changing format now. There are some clips at youtube confirming a contest called Türkçevizyon Müzik Festivali, with contestant from the same range of countries/regions as this years Turkvision. The strange thing is: I found confirmation this contest (Türkçevizyon Müzik Festivali) was held in city Eylül in 2013. In one way, I would belive Turkvision is some sort of continuing of Türkçevizyon Müzik Festivali. But the fact that Türkçevizyon Müzik Festivali already was held this year makes me wonder. Are we talking about two different competitions, or is Turkvision a new developement based on the first Music Festival? --TorbjørnS (talk) 02:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

• Answer to the small question. The venue was Anadolu University.
• Answer to the big question. No this event was not started in 2009. Türkçevizyon Müzik Festivali is different from Türkvizyon. The former is only for Turkish citizens, where as the latter is for Turkish speaking regions, countries, dynasties. Wes Mᴥuse 07:39, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarifying answers :) --TorbjørnS (talk) 19:18, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Song title translations

Can we either get reliable sources and/or a translator to make sure that the translated song titles are accurate? Mr. Gerbear|Talk 22:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

In russian page. I use the Language to Russian Dictionaries, for more Turkish words I use more dictionaries (include Google Tranlsator), and for Yakutian title song I asked my Yakutian friend. Some Turk titles I also translated from original video of contest on YouTube, where in parenthesis displayed the Turkish translate of title song. More of this title in English page, I think, was translated from Russian page. Translation may be poor. But it's better than nothing. I apologize if this is not so. ← Alejandro de Grande ^talk 05:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Iraq Map

In Turkvizyon 2013, Iraq participated under the whole country. Their name was seen as "Iraq" in the contest. Not only Kirkuk city. So can you please paint whole Iraq in red in the participation map? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.252.13.252 (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi final results

According to a news article from Tatarstan, in 2014 they came 1st in the semi final. From what I can remember the results of the semi final were never publicly announced. Article is - http://rt.rbc.ru/tatarstan_topnews/20/11/2014/956578.shtml