Talk:Soybean car

A fact from Soybean car appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 April 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the first car that had a body entirely of plastic was manufactured by the Ford Motor Company in 1941?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/April.

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Unsourced references

The article has references "Anzovin, p. 189", "Tomes, p. 6", "Allen, p. 121", "Bryan, p. 48", "Anzovin, p. 189", "Bial, p. 33". These look like they were copied from some other publication, and lack a full citation. I've tried searching for the sources, but I'm just getting copies of Wikipedia. --John Nagle (talk) 03:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can assure you the references are there. I will tweak the citations further for a full citation.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 11:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These citations are to books, an obsolescent medium they used to use in the 20th Century. Whether portions of them might be on line I don't know. Given Coldwell's editing history, I would assume that you can WP:AGF. Otherwise, full citations have been provided, and they are linked within the article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see Benson Ford Research Center (2011). "Soybean Car". The Henry Ford. Retrieved October 20, 2012. including an extensive bibliography, which includes a full panoply of additional sources. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When citing a book in a Wikipedia reference, the template "cite book" is helpful. The first appearance of a reference should not be a shortened form. --John Nagle (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is all linked. The cite book template is used throughout. It would be helpful to see an example. Perhaps you could demonstrate in this article. Thank you. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I had to look at the code to see what had been put in. The "tag" form (<ref>[[#Tomes|Tomes]], p. 6</ref>) creates a citation style where the brief reference appears before the long reference. Usually, books are cited fully at first reference, so there's no separate "Sources" section. --John Nagle (talk) 16:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did it the way you wanted. I thought the other way was more elegant. But take a look and you decide. And fix it if you will. If you want the format you now suggest, you need to go back three or four edits. This is too much navel gazing for me. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quotation

You indicated that you "removed the bogus quote" and that the original did not have the word "hemp" in it. If you have a better version of the quote and a source, would it be too much to ask for you to fix the quote and put in the source? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Removed word "hemp" and put back quote and citation.

Done 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, I found this Henry Ford quote on Marijuana.

“

Why use up the forests which were centuries in the making and the mines which required ages to lay down, if we can get the equivalent of forest and mineral products in the annual growth of the hemp fields?

”

It appears NOT to be a bogus quote.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Marijuana Use No Longer Dropping Among U.S. Teens". U.S. News. Retrieved October 19, 2012. What concerns me as to this source is that these are readers comments, albeit it does use the phrase "hemp fields". But I personally would like a better source before we restore that word. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 20:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another source that supports the use of "hemp fields." "Altruism Sustainability". Projects. Panacea-BOCAF Building Our Children A Future. Retrieved October 19, 2012. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help) 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bramhall, Stuart. "The Industrial Hemp Farming Act Bill". Sustainability. Retrieved October 18, 2012. A lot of people seem to think he referred to "hemp fields." 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be one of those items that gets copied from pro-hemp site to pro-hemp site, with no cite to an original source. We need to tie this back to some book or speech by Ford to use it. There are many Google hits for the phrase without "hemp", but nothing authoritative. --John Nagle (talk) 05:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Better source for what Ford had to say on the subject: "Henry Ford on Plastics", The Rotarian, February 1943. [1]. He talks at length about the impact of industrial use of agricultural products. Also, the formula for the panels in the "soybean car" is given: 30% phenol-formaldehyde resin, 70% filler, composed of five parts southern-pine fiber, three parts straw, one part hemp, and one part ramie.--John Nagle (talk) 05:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's a substantial literature on fillers for phenolic plastics. A huge range of materials has been tried - asbestos, coal, cotton, carbon fiber, canvas, paper pulp, mica, sawdust... Some fillers are added to reduce cost, others to improve properties. Organic fillers improve resiliency (pure phenolic is Bakelite, which is rather brittle) but absorb water and expand when wet, a problem for auto exterior body parts.[2][www.omicsonline.org/2157-7048/2157-7048-3-132.pdf^{[predatory publisher]}] Cars with plastic body panels are common today, but articles mention PET, ABS, fiberglas, and some other exotic plastics, not phenolics. --John Nagle (talk) 06:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Rotarian article was informative, but doesn't address the content or source of the "hemp field" quote. Of course, notwithstanding that a lot of marijuana proponent websites have picked it up, hemp has a much longer history and was a substantial agricultural product without reference to the THC that was in it. So the use of the word "hemp" is an anachronism, and not as controversial as it may now appear. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The quote is very similar in tenor to the quote from Thomas Edison (who was a close friend of Henry Ford) that: "You see, we should make use of the forces of nature and should obtain all our power in this way. Sunshine is a form of energy, wind and sea currents are manifestations of this energy. Do we make use of them? Oh no! We burn forests and coal, like tenants burning down our front door for heating. We live like wild settlers and not as though these resources belong to us." Thomas A.Edison, inventor of the tungsten lightbulb, 1916 Likewise, Henry Ford's comment was about agriculture, farming and sustainability, and only incidentally about hemp, and not about marijuana at all. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest pulling some suitable quote from the Rotarian article, where Ford is talking about the same subject (plastics!) at more length. That's a solid source, not a sound bite out of context. It's clear there that Ford was talking about using a wide range of agricultural materials as fillers/extenders in plastics. The Henry Ford Museum article says that never got beyond the experimental stage. (Using agricultural products in plastics is widespread today, but it's not done by just grinding up the stuff and dumping it into the mix.[3]). See also Bioplastic, the main article on this subject. --John Nagle (talk) 15:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fuel Source

This article says the car ran on "ethanol derived from hemp or alcohol", but that's not supported by the subsequent citation. I haven't been able to find any reliable source as to what the car ran on. If there's no proper citation, this should be taken out.KaturianKKaturian 16:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the line about the fuel. This seems to be an embellishment added later.KaturianKKaturian 16:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

This line has been waiting 6 months for a citation. It appears that none exists, so I'm removing it.KaturianKKaturian 16:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, it's been over a year, and no one has come up with a citation for this claim, so I removed it. Please don't put this back without discussion.KaturianKaturian 01:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Citation format

I propose that we go to sfn format. I started on this. It would be an improvement, I think. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great minds think alike. I was done doing it with the existing references slightly different when ... edit conflict... You want to finish moving to it? If we both do it'll be messy. Skyerise (talk) 02:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll hold off a bit for now. I'm happy to finish it or for you to. And though I prefer the defaults, it's not problem if you change the notes to upper case, which you seem to prefer. I wish Abbey Brewing Company which I wrote were in lower case, but you did the work so I let it stand. Thanks for the expansion of that article by the way. I was avoiding using info from the website, I find it makes a more solid basis for the article to omit website-sourced material altogether or at least leave it until other sources have been exhausted... Skyerise (talk) 03:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Converted from Lower Alpha to Upper Alpha with this edit. Easy peasy lemon squeezy! 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure how long should be given for a consensus to override WP:CITEVAR should be given. I am pretty sure that starting on the conversion before proposing it on the talk page is a bad idea. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Changes by IP

I have replicated certain minor changes made recently by an IP. Another change has been reinstated by someone else (bringing the portal to the top of the "See also" section. Most of the rest will be redundant if the cite style is changed to sfn. It is disappointing to see edit warring in place of discussion.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:46, 6 June 2015 (UTC).[reply]

The only editor who was edit warring was the IP, and there was discussion going on; just on the IP's and other editors' Talk pages rather than here, and it wasn't constructive because the IP simply asserted that their edit was better without any serious effort to explain why. General Ization ^Talk 13:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the citation format changes we have now implemented addressed his concerns. I agree with User: General Ization about the edit war and the violation of WP: 3RR. There was some merit to the suggestions, but the IP was using a sledge hammer where a scalpel was needed. And as a newbie apparently thought himself above the rules and normal collegial processes of editing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:25, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The IP was not a newbie. Take a look at their editing history and their edit summaries and it's pretty obvious. I personally suspect sockpuppetry. Also note that the IP was simultaneously edit warring on several different articles, not just here. General Ization ^Talk 13:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I WP:AGF. Was unaware of that, although it is not a surprise as there was some familiarity with wikipedia and evident wikilawyering. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Citation problem

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I am having a problem with the citation after the Further reading section. keep getting an error for "Soybean Car". Popular Research Topics. Dearborn, Michigan: Benson Ford Research Center The Henry Ford. Retrieved June 6, 2015. and I don't know why. Any help would be appreciated. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The text that is causing the error is

<ref>Available at the Benson Ford Research Center at [[The Henry Ford]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.thehenryford.org/research/soybeancar.aspx# |work=Popular Research Topics |title=Soybean Car |publisher=Benson Ford Research Center [[The Henry Ford]] |location=Dearborn, Michigan |accessdate=June 6, 2015}}</ref>

You are opening a reference before the word available, and then before the start of the {{cite web}}, but only closing it once. The numbers of <ref> and </ref> tags have to match exactly. Revent^talk 15:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed Thank you. I was looking at it and was not seeing. Idiothetic. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Other soy-based cars in this article?