Talk:Side-striped jackal

The name of this article

In the English language, the names of species/types of animals are NOT capitalized. Exceptions include the Douglas fir, Tasmanian devil, Siberian tiger, and Norway rat. Otherwise, they are written like this: grizzly bear, bottlenosed dolphin, blue whale, potato, carrot, white-tailed deer.

Hence, the title of this article needs to be Side-striped jackal, with the capital "S" capitalized only because it is the first word of the title of this Wipipedia article. 98.67.110.23 (talk) 22:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Genus change - Canis to Lupulella

Given the growing number of papers supporting a rename of this species from genus Canis to genus Lupulella including the Canid Specialist Group, and that the Mammal Diversity Database of the American Society of Mammalogists also supports Lupulella with WP:MAMMALS supporting the use of this database as a more up-to-date source than MSW3 in its WP:WikiProject Mammals#Guidelines, I have renamed the genus of this species from Canis to Lupulella as a WP:BOLD edit. Happy to discuss. William Harris (talk) 10:29, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Genus change from Lupulella to Schaeffia

@Vasiľ: Please hold off on this. We generally wait on mammal taxonomic changes for the IUCN or the ASM's MDD to catch the update and th MDD v1.12 is coming out this week or very soon. There is no need to rush the change in while our preferred sources do not have the update; and if ASM's MDD doesn't include this change, we should have a discussion before accepting it. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

In fact, I just downloaded the 1.12 'cos I wasn't sure if what I was seeing in the website was 1.11 or 1.12. This species is retained in Lupulella in th 1.12 version of the MDD. So, let's look at the sources you say support the move:

• Ref 3: Primary source
• Ref 4: Still uses Lupulella but discusses the possible move
• Ref 5: Says the same: "If not monophyletic, then switch to Schaeffia, but doesn't say this has been proven.
• Ref 6: Still uses Lupulella but discusses the possible move
• Ref 7: Still uses Canis!
• Ref 8: From 1860... can't be used to say a thing about modern thoughts on taxonomy
• Ref 9: From 1915... ditto.

- UtherSRG (talk) 14:23, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

That all said.... if you want to add to the discussion in the Taxonomy section with the primary source suggesting Schaeffia should be used, please go ahead. But please leave the rest of the article alone. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

(0) Ad "ref. 8" - The year is not 1860 but 1906. And "can't be used to say a thing about modern thoughts on taxonomy" is not true, because the source is the original author of the genus name and that is the reason it is cited here. Since when is citing the first author of a scientific name irrelevant rather than the exact opposiite, i.e. absolutely fundamental ??

(1) The move is necessary because of what you call "ref. 3", where a fossil genus was added to the analysis, which completely changes the hitherto interpretation of the whole tree. The other references have the "move" as an alternative, i.e. the authors would not mind if it was moved. Most importantly the authors of the move to genus Lupulella (2017) themselves say that the move to genus Schaeffia is equally valid depending om the tree you use, you just have to read the Additional Notes there. In other words, in 2017, at the latest, Lupullela adusta and Schaeffia adusta, should have been at least mentioned as equally valid placements in the article.

(2) 1 years or so after the publication of "ref. 3" is no short waiting time, rather the opposite. I did not come immediately after the study was published, as you seem to wrongly suggest here.

(3) Your statement (even if it is backed by whatever potential internal, and therefore objectively irrelevant, agreement of you and your friends here) that 2 websites randomly selected by you (or whomwever) decide what is the current state of knowledge, and what is worthy of (not) publishing, is not only contrary to any science, but contradicts the very purpose of wikipedia, i. e. to depict true and up-to-date information. And it is, frankly, an absurd statement. There are thousands of sources on mammalian taxonomy.

(4) Databases have no precedence over actual studies and books.

(5) IUCN is not updated often and there is no reason to considered it relevant for taxonomy, its true purpose being environmental protection, not taxonomy. MDD is just one website of many with the opinion of a small group of particular authors, nothing more or less. Any other scientific source is equally (if not more) relevant.

(6) The fact that a website was updated on Jan 5 2024 does not imply that the authors have read and incorporated all changes available in the literature valid as at the date of the update. Updates can involve many kinds of, even just small or technical or partial, changes. The only thing that can be seen on the MDD page is that their last source is the 2017 study, i.e. the text is outdated.

(7) If you need an authoritative website with up-to-date information - see e.g. here https://paleobiodb.org/classic/checkTaxonInfo?taxon_no=475234&is_real_user=1 (including the taxon history section). But the books and study cited by me in the text are of course much more relevant.

(8) The current state of knowledge, based on the last published study on this topis, is that the species has been moved to Schaeffia, because Lupulella [sensu English wikipedia] is no monophyletic group. This might change tomorrow, in 1 year or whenwever, but it is the current state of knowledge, which wikipedia or any other serious must depict. If the current stateo of knowledge changes, the text will be changed accordingly. There is nothing complicated about this.

(9) Your deletion of the very well sourced information that the species' alternative (i.e. not definitive, but alternative) classification is in the genus Schaeffia, is basically vandalism. This is all the more striking if we consider the fact (which cannot be repeated often enough) that the authors of the study who have moved this species to Lupulella in 2017 themselves (!) point out that it could be equally well classified in Schaeffia. The same statement, i.e. that the alternative placement is in Schaeffia, has been also contained in many other sources for years (you have repeated them yourself above), therefore it was contrary to science and to all principles of wikipedia to completely withhold this information from the readers even before I came and corrected the information. In other words, the article has been misinforming the readers even during the 2017-2023 period (and well before, i.e. at the time of Canis adustus, because the situation was basically the same even at that time).

(10) The initial reason you gave for the revert of my well sourced edit was "reference bombing". This is also vandalism and this edit alone unfortunately diqualifies you from any serious edits, because this is by no means a normal reaction. What you have done is that you have turned the basis of any scientific work (i.e. citing the sources and citing the authors) and all the fundamental principles of wikipedia (which are basically the same) into "reference bombing" (!!???), which can be removed at will, i.e. at your personal discretion.

(11) That all said, there is absolute no reason (not a single one) to keep the species in its old genus. Have a nice day. 2A02:AB04:3140:7400:919B:6CC:A12C:3329 (talk) 07:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia has very particular rules as to what data comes in and when that data comes in. For mammal taxonomy, we wait for the IUCN or the ASM MDD. This was decided by consensus, which is how the whole project operates. It is not up to Wikipedia editors to decide science, which is what you would have us do. It is up to us to report on what reliable independent sources have decided. The WP:WikiProject Mammals has decided that that means for taxonomy, IUCN and ASM MDD, or a significant number of other third-party sources using that taxonomy. In addition, making this change at this point would constitute synthesis, which is also contrary to Wikipedia policy. Finally, please read all the links in this reply - they are all policy statements (plus the one internal project). - UtherSRG (talk) 12:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Support continuation of classification as Lupulella as per the given reasons. Support Schaeffia included in the article as a taxonomic proposal, which is what it is. There will now remain a taxonomic debate until one party withdraws their position, as has happened with the Red wolf Canis rufus after about 30 years. The reason for the proposal is not because "Lupulella [sensu English wikipedia] is no monophyletic group", but that the genus Canis was found to be not a monophyletic group, which has led to Lupulella and Schaeffia being split from it. 14.2.206.29 (talk) 05:40, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello editor UtherSRG, regarding your latest edit with the summary of "bold is the new standard", could you advise me of the new MOS policy which supports that standard, please? 14.2.206.29 (talk) 21:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Yup. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Organisms. - UtherSRG (talk) 01:48, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

BTW: It's not new. For years I've been using that edit summary when that's the only change made. It's a subtle pun on "Orange is the new Black". - UtherSRG (talk) 01:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks. I could not find it discussed in the archives of WP:MAMMALS but have only just found it as MOS:CONTEXTLINK under organisms. Then I found your reply. It would have been convenient if the advice also had an entry under MOS:BOLD and MOS:ITALICS, which offers no direction. 14.2.206.29 (talk) 02:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You can go to the talk page there are suggest having it added. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking that after I received your first reply. I tend to get negative responses when I suggest minor changes on the major WP:POL Talk pages, however it is on my agenda - thanks for your support. 14.2.206.29 (talk) 11:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Schaeffia in lede sentence

What is the view of other editors regarding the inclusion of Schaeffia in the first line after Lupulella, as we did with Canis and Lupulella in this article in the past here? The taxobox remains "Lupulella", as does the first entry. This is no different to the current arrangements for Eastern wolf and Dingo. As long as there is more than one taxonomic authority proposing a different classification, then all proposals need to be reflected in the article until one side removes its support, as has recently happened with the Red wolf (C. rufus). Wikipedia is not supposed to lend support to one particular line, it is supposed to be accurate. 14.2.206.29 (talk) 21:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Now actioned. Other editors to note - under Wikipedia arrangements, the name to be used is Lupulella adusta, especially in the taxobox. 14.2.206.29 (talk) 22:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)