Talk:Shunzei's daughter

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 21:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"although she did not hesitate to castigate him when he completed the Shinchokusen Wakashū, for Teika had turned against his former ideal poetic style of yoen (ethereal beauty) while Shunzei's Daughter had not- thus she found Teika's previous efforts...

"although she did not hesitate to castigate him when he completed the Shinchokusen Wakashū, for Teika had turned against his former ideal poetic style of yoen (ethereal beauty) while Shunzei's Daughter had not- thus she found Teika's previous efforts to be markedly inferior, an"

This makes no sense to me. She found his efforts from the time when she liked his style INFERIOR? Also, this abomination of a runon sentence needs to be rewritten. Tabbycatlove (talk) 23:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 16 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 21:38, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

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Shunzei's Daughter → Shunzei's daughter – See similar case of Takasue's daughter. Capitalizing "Daughter" is weird. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:57, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Hmm. I probably agree, but it looks like the discussion you've linked found a consensus for the capitalized version Takasue's Daughter, so that shouldn't really have been moved away from the capitalized version without further discussion either. Dekimasuよ! 19:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

@Dekimasu: Arrgh. Really? Sorry, I had forgotten exactly what I wrote six years ago, and just took the current title of the article on its face. I guess we should probably change this to a mass RM to cover both of these articles, the similar Michitsuna no Haha, and ... any other articles? Those are the three most famous by far, but I know there are others. I'm opposed to using the Japanese words and capitalizing as it gives the false impression they are "names" (The term Michitsuna no Haha literally translates to Michitsuna's mother. bugs me since translating it up front would mean we could just give the Japanese in parentheses like every other article, and Michitsuna no Haha is not a "term" but a conventional personal appellation that refers to that specific person), and I'm slightly partial to ... whichever one Keene uses, which I suspect is "Takasue's daughter". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:07, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

A brief Googling brought up Tsunenobu's mother ([1]), Akinaka's daughter ([2]), Sukemasa's daughter ([3]), The Jōjin initiate's mother ([4]),Chikakiyo's daughter ([5]), Chikakiyo's daughter's younger sister ([6]), Chikakiyo's fourth daughter ([7]) and Chikakiyo's fifth daughter ([8]). ja.wiki doesn't have an article on the first three, calls the fourth by her conventional "name", and lumps the latter four into a single page clumsily titled "Taira no Chikakiyo's daughter, Taira no Chikakiyo's daughter's younger sister, Taira no Chikakiyo's fourth daughter, Taira no Chikakiyo's fifth daughter"; since we're not bound my conventional names we could theoretically just call the article Taira no Chikakiyo's daughters, but I would rather see individual articles on the four. Japanese Wikipedia also has an article on Kanetoshi's mother, although I'll have to check to see if the Heian Jidai-shi Jiten actually has a standalone entry on her because none of the encyclopedias on Kotobank or in my denshi-jisho do. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:35, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Okay, so without limiting my search to the Heian period I found Saigyō's daughter, Nagachika's mother, Kinshige's daughter, Nikkō's mother ([9]), Dōgen's mother ([10]), Enshōbō's wife ([11]), Yoshiyasu's wife ([12]), Akizane's mother ([13]) and Norinaga's mother ([14])

Yeah, and I checked; Keene prefers Mother of Michitsuna, Daughter of Takasue, etc., which was pretty roundly defeated at the Takasue's daughter page six years ago. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:01, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@Philg88: Since you moved Takasue's daughter to its current title, you might want to chime in here. I don't know what my thought process was six years ago during the last RM, but right now I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you that it shouldn't have been capitalized. The argument that it's "not a name" doesn't really work, though, since it's treated as a name, even if a placeholder name for someone who had a real name that is lost to us: the Japanese doesn't mark the genitive particle as it would otherwise (in fact the "daughters" even use a character established by convention that in modern Japanese would mean "woman"), and these figures are always called by the exact same "names". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:43, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: That move was done following a request at WP:RMT and I believe the same principle applies here, i.e as it's not a proper noun it shouldn't be capitalised. Cheers,  Philg88 ^♦talk 10:29, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@Philg98: Well, if that's the case then the RMT was definitely out of line (RMT can't be used to unilaterally overrule a previous RM discussion). On closer inspection I did seem to be open to the non-capitalized form, and someone else at WT:JAPAN apparently said it should be capitalized: I proposed the capitalized form as a concession, and one user said he had no problem with that, and another user supported for an unrelated reason, but that doesn't invalidate the original RM as far as I am aware.

Anyway, I'm basically neutral on whether to capitalize or not (and only slightly partial to using English rather than following the current format of Michitsuna no Haha), but it needs to be resolved one way or the other (so I can get down to creating all the other articles under the standardized format).

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:10, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm also partial to just using the Japanese for these in general. They are close to being proper names in actual usage; they indicate a single person even when the "Shunzei" or "Takasue" is otherwise unimportant in history or literature. The English versions remind me a little of that translation of I Am a Cat with Waverhouse, Coldmoon, and Goldfield. Dekimasuよ! 17:29, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Dude, don't wake the dragon by calling Fujiwara no Shunzei "otherwise unimportant". (Obviously I'm kidding, and you were speaking in general about these figures who are only known because of their famous female relatives, but Shunzei is the clear exception.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:56, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support "daughter" isn't a proper name/noun here, so it shouldn't be capitalized. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:27, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.