Talk:Niominka people

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move to original name essentially reverting an undiscussed move after several years of stability at the original name. Mike Cline (talk) 20:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

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Serer-Niominka → Niominka – The Niominka are a distinct ethnic group with a distinctive history. Most reliable sources call them simply "Niominka", not "Serer-Niominka". They may be currently grouped together with Serer for linguistic reasons, but that was not always the case. The title minimizes their distinctive history and culture. Moreover, the ethnicity of the original Niominka is uncertain, an unresolved item of debate, so affixing a Serer prefix is imposing a particular POV as to their ethnic origin. Finally, since existing Niominka are today a small and vulnerable population, subsuming them under their larger neighbors is not devoid of political implications. To restore neutrality, the title should be restored to simply "Niominka" (the title of the article up until a month or so ago). Walrasiad (talk) 18:02, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

• Strong oppose . The Serer Niominka are part of the Serer ethnic group. Failure to recognise that would be a failure to recognise the diversity of the Serer group. Even Becker commented on this diversity (See: Charles Becker. "Vestiges historiques, trémoins matériels du passé clans les pays sereer". Dakar. 1993). Not only are they group together with the Serers because they speak Serer, but they also have Serer culture etc. Every one even in the Senegambia refer to them as Serers and they see themselves as Serers. Is just like saying the Ndut and Safi etc who speak Cangin languages are not Serers ethnically. Sometimes people use Niominka as a shorthand, but I don't think we should deny people their Serer heritage. Indeed, by referring to them as Serer-Niominkaa, we recognise both their Serer heritage and Niominka. To call them just Niominka would be denying them their Serer heritage. Many scholar refer to them as Serer-Niominka just as Serer-Njegeme, Serer-Siin, etc. (See: Dennis Charles Galvan. The state must be our master of fire, p38. Also: Leonardo Alfonso Villalón. Islamic society and state power in Senegal, p51; African economic history, volume 25, University of Wisconsin--Madison. African Studies Program, p32). Most of the confusion regarding who should be called Serer is to do with the various cangin languages and Serer Sine. The Serer people however are not confused and they see themselves as Serer ethnically even if they speak a different dialect or language to other Serers. It is normally outsiders who tend to divide the Serer into compartments rather than just letting them be. The Serer Associations of Dakar as well as the Serer community have been trying for years to fight this division of the Serer group by outsiders. No one is subsuming anyone. Serer-Niominka culture is recognised and celebrated within the Serer group just like Serer-Sine, Serer-Njegheme etc. The reason for this is, because it is Serer culture period.

Tamsier (talk) 05:59, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

To clarify: the author of the comment above (Tamsier) is the person who originally moved the long-standing page "Niominka" to "Serer-Niominka" recently. This is a title issue. Niominka are overwhelmingly referred to as "Niominka" in the scholarly literature, e.g. a quick googlebooks search turns up 11,000 references to Niominka, vs. 283 Serer-Niominka. "Niominka" is historically the name by which they have been known and referred to. Their origins are uncertain. Hyphenating them as Serer-Niominka in the title implies they have always been Serer, which is a debatable POV. If you want to comment on their current links to Serer, that can be done in the article text. But a particular debatable POV should not be imposed in the title. Walrasiad (talk) 06:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support. There is no need in terms of WP:PRECISION to hyphenate the name, or mention the Serer connection at all in the title; A redirect will take care of that. The previous move from Niominka people appears to have been undiscusssd, and is openly admitted in the above discussion to be based on a POV. Andrewa (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support. This Serer thing is infecting Wikipedia and has no real weight for all of this focus at the expense of the demographic reality. Oromo an article I work on is far larger yet has a smaller wiki footprint, to summarize the info. Also per Walrasiad It is ONE editors POV.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 04:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move - more precise

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

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Niominka → Niominka people – Move "Niominka" to "Niominka people" as per WP custom on ethnic groups, and in alignment with article titles for other ethnic groups in Senegal (e.g. "Wolof people", "Lebou people", etc.) Walrasiad (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support. I see no reason not to follow the established convention. Knight of Truth (talk) 00:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

History : Dubious and which

I've gone through page 73 of "Islam and Imperialism in Senegal, Sine-Saloum, 1847-1914, by Martin A. Klein. According to the history section, the editor wrote :

"When Maba Bâ launched an attack on the kingdom of Saloum, both the Mandinka-speaking Niumi of Barra and the Serer-speaking Niominka swore allegiance to the marabouts and joined in the attack on the Serers of Saloum.

Gone through page 73 (even page 71-5) but Klein never said that. Is editor using the following passage (below) and adding 1 and 1 to make 4?

"The predominantly Moslim population of the French and English trading settlements also was sympathetic to the Tijani reformer [Maba]."

Oh by the way I have the book, and not reading it from snippits.

Also which Serer migrated from the north? There were some Serers who indeed migrated from the north (the Serer community of Tekrur in the 11th century), but there were Serers who where indigenious to the Gambia. That's why I asked which. The Serer community is very diverse and cannot be compartmentalize. I would also take it that editor didn't know the Mandinkas are not indigenous to the Gambia. They migrated from Mali in the 13th-16 centuries.

One last point, the Niominkas did not borrow rice farming from Mandinkas, if anything, they borrowed rice production from the Diola people not Mandinka. [1]. Tamsier (talk)

Oops. Typo on Klein. Meant page 78, not 73.

"The Mandinka villages of Niombato swore allegiance to Ma Ba and took part in operations against the tyeddo. Several of the Serer-speaking Niominka villages on the Saloum delta islands followed suit. It is probable that conversions in this area were influeneced by a shared hostility to the tyeddo - Saloum had long tried to control the Saloum delta islands. The alliance of Ma Ba with the coastal peoples reversed traditional relationships - the attacked were now the attackers - and led to the lasting conversion of the area."

Can't tell you which Serer as the origins and exact extent of the early Niominka lands is uncertain. That they were Jola pushed out of the central Saloum-Gambia by Serer & Mandinka migrants is just one hypothesis. The migration of the Mandinka from the east and south is already mentioned in the article.

EDIT: I noticed you put the tag on the phrase "they were 'Sererized' by migrants from the north". Here, that means from the north of current Niominka lands in the delta, i.e. Serer migrants from Sine or Saloum states (which lie to the north of current Niominka lands) who moved into the delta to live among the early Niominka and "Sererized" them as a result. This is another origin hypotheses.

On rice, have to check my references. Jola were certainly rice-growers, and Mandinka got rice-growing from them. But it is uncertain whether Niominka were originally Jola (and thus original rice-growers) or simply migrants/exiles/fugitives from the Saloum/Mandinka states, in which case the Mandinka element would have brought the rice, and the Serer element the millet. But let me track down my source. Walrasiad (talk) 12:11, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok. Do that. I will go through page 78 on Klein and compare it with other sources as well. Though I have great respect for him and have quoted him before, I always see how his account compare to other sources. He was known for his anti-Serer sentiments and pro-islamic bias. Just to make it clear, I have no objection if one wants to quote Klein. I just thought I mention that couple with the fact that he did not devote much time on the Niominka or the other Serer communities e.g. Ndut etc. in his book. His book is mostly about the Seex (i.e. the Serer Sine). Tamsier (talk) 13:19, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: Gone through p 78. Your quote above is correct. I notice that he is quoting Lafont. Lafont did write a book on the Niominka. I'm sure I have him somewhere. For the time being I will remove the tags. Tamsier (talk) 13:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)