Talk:Senebkay

Photo of tomb?

Can we get a photo of the tomb? RJFJR (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Article name

Why is "Seneb Kay" used for the article name rather than "Senebkay" (which is what most people are using)? (Personally, I would have preferred something like "Senebka'ay", but nobody is using that.) So far, everything I have seen is using "Senebkay" so the article name of "Seneb Kay" just seems a bit confusing. — al-Shimoni (talk) 01:45, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

"Seneb Kay" and "Senebkay" are both valid ways of writing this king's name in English, and originate from the fact that in hieroglyphics, there is not obvious space between the words. However Seneb and Kay re two distinct Egyptian words, "Seneb" means "health"/"healthy" and "Kay" , "Ka force" ???. In any case "Seneb" and "Kay" are the Egyptian words and so "Seneb Kay" would seem a better transcription. Anyway, there is a redirect from "Senebkay" to "Seneb Kay", I also put the various spellings in the article. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Using both spellings this way makes the article look as if it needs to be copy edited. Pick one to use for the article and put the other in as a side note. Something like: "Senebkay, alternatively Seneb Kay, was an Egyptian pharaoh during the Second Intermediate Period." --Khajidha (talk) 13:08, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

you are dealing with a person's name here, not a string of words. as such it should be rendered "senebkay".84.198.207.82 (talk) 10:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

a double name is an option. It is not that clear whether that is one or whether these are two names. -- Udimu (talk) 10:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Udimu, it would be one name (just as the name "Albert" would be "Albert" and not its composing wordings "Al Bert" nor "Adal Beraht") as mentioned by the anon IP. More importantly/relevantly, this would match the typical standard in Egyptology.

In any case, Iry's above defense sounds like Original Research/Synthesis. Article names, at en.WP, are supposed to be chosen by most common English usage, not personal pet-conventions. However, except for WP, I have — so far — only seen "Senebkay" used in media, journals, and discussions. As for putting "the various spellings in the article", would that not seem like intentionally going against WP guidelines??? Spelling should be consistent throughout the article with the exceptions being direct quotes or directly pointing out spelling variations. The article creator (Aragon Benitez Busselle) is a bit curious; the account seems to have been created for creating this article, but then disappears from editing when Iry-Hor starts editing it. The user has no current Talk page. I was hoping that he might have had a reference to share. :( And, yes, Iry, there are no "obvious space[s] between the words" — most of the time — which is why context is important for figuring that out (some words go together as a single word/name, some do not; context is your friend). — al-Shimoni (talk) 12:06, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Imeriki al-Shimoni: Again. It is not that clear whether Senebkay is a single name or a Double name. Both, Seneb and Kay are otherwise well attested as single names. So it is certainly not comparable with Al bert, but with George Bernard to give one example (name taken from the article, I just cited). Especially in the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period, double naming in Egypt was very common. Therefore we can not be sure how to deal with this name. Nevertheless, I agree with you, it might be better to move the article to Senebkay, as it is the form most often used in the media. bw -- Udimu (talk) 14:20, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Article moved to Senebkay. The article includes "alternatively Seneb Kay" at the beginning, which is what I meant by "various spellings in the article". I did not try to do original research nor to impose anything regarding the spelling, only I tried to explain why both spelling are possible. Also, I indeed do not know who created the article and why he/she spelt it this way. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:57, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Seneb Kay's tomb

This king's tomb apparently had 4 chambers according to this source. Another source with a few more pictures. I see you have the information in the article already. That's good. Best Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Reader feedback: More Pics & Info.

5.108.8.229 posted this comment on 21 January 2014 (view all feedback).

More Pics & Info.

Any thoughts?

We will update with more info as it becomes available. Unfortunately all pictures that have been released are under copyright and cannot be used on wikipedia. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Sebkay

In 1902 Randall MacIver and Mace discovered in the North East Cemetery at Abydos a magic wand. In 1903 Daressy published a picture of it. It is now in the Cairo Museum CG 9433. There is the king's name Se[ne]bkay clearly carved. Only Ryholt divided artificially this king in two a Seb and a Kay, which now is confusing. So Wegner has just discovered the tomb of this 13th dynasty king. He is long known. Cf. Porter and Moss V, 69. 82.16.170.193 (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Here is a picture of the wand: http://www.google.de/imgres?sa=X&biw=1366&bih=665&tbm=isch&tbnid=4sps41LY6wc29M%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3AKay_Amenemhat.jpg&docid=5a1usvYfFepp6M&itg=1&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F8%2F83%2FKay_Amenemhat.jpg&w=2052&h=1458&ei=bnzlUsSfFJKBhAeY-YHoDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=3045&page=1&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=0CFcQrQMwAA 82.16.170.193 (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

thank you for the information. That identification is not yet really published, so we can't use it in the very moment. bw -- Udimu (talk) 00:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Senebkay and Sebkay / Seb Kay are different kings, as far as I can tell nobody identifies Sebkay (or Seb and Kay as per Ryholt) with the Senebkay whose tomb has been discovered. The wand bears the name Sebkay or Seb [sa] Kay (as per Ryholt) not Senebkay (the picture is available on commons by the way). Based on his tomb, Wegner dates Senebkay to the mid to late SIP c. 1650-1600 BC when Sebkay (or Seb and Kay) are universally dated to the first half of the 13th dynasty. Again the name on the wand is not Senebkay, but as you noted, it is Sebkay, it is not because their names are similar that the kings should be conflated. Iry-Hor (talk) 10:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

On the wand there is written Sebkay not Seb sa Kay, that's an interpretation of Ryholt. Kara Cooney of the UCLA is identifying both kings.82.16.170.193 (talk) 01:28, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

If you read what I wrote, you will see that I agree with you regarding the reading of the wand: the wand reads Sebkay and Seb [sa] Kay is Ryholt's (conjectural) reading. Good published references for Sebkay to be a single person include:

• Detlef Franke: Zur Chronologie des Mittleren Reiches. Teil II: Die sogenannte Zweite Zwischenzeit Altägyptens, in Orientalia 57 (1988)
• Thomas Schneider: Ancient Egyptian Chronology, edited by E. Hornung, R. Krauss and D. Warburton, book available online
• Jürgen von Beckerath: Untersuchungen zur politischen Geschichte der Zweiten Zwischenzeit in Ägypten, Glückstadt, 1964, and Chronologie des pharaonischen Ägyptens, Münchner Ägyptologische Studien 46. Mainz am Rhein, 1997.
• Stephen Quirke on Digital Egypt for Universities.

If you have Kara Cooney's published work where she states that Sebkay is a single person, I would be happy to include it in the list. Unfortunately, no article on Sebkay exist yet on wikipedia, this is something I might do soon if nobody else does. The list of references would then go into this article. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:49, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor: Senebkay=Sebkay appears several times on the web. Otherwise Kara Cooney mentioned it on her facebook page. Anyway, that is not a source usable as reference. @82.16.170.193: we can only use information published in proper sources. Personally, I find these new discoveries hard on the boarder for using them, as they appear in press reports, written by people with little knowledge of the subject. -- Udimu (talk) 12:09, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Woseribre

Could someone provide a source in order to write his throne name Woseribre in hieroglyphs? Khruner (talk) 13:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It is probably because Senebkay has been placed in the Abydos Dynasty. The first two names in the Turin king list both are Woser...re. --Peter Lundström 19:15, 5 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PLstrom (talk • contribs)

I probably asked the question in the wrong way. Since Senebkay's throne name is claimed to be Woseribre, I have deduced that it should appear in his tomb as his personal name does. So I was asking if someone can find on whe web or elsewhere an eventual picture of the throne name in order to transcribe it in the titulary box. Khruner (talk) 10:18, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

found a publication with the name. I added it. bw -- Udimu (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

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