Talk:Séamus Woulfe

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Name

Noting persistent attempts to include "James" as the first name - if there is a proper citation that Woulfe's birth or legal name is James, this may be included in the body text. The article title is controlled by WP:COMMONNAME and he has for most of his career been known by that name, and in sports too, as I recall, but a proper citation would back up the other name to make a limited appearance. A link to a review or promo page about a book is no use, we'd need the book itself cited, with a page number. SeoR (talk) 20:33, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It matters not a jot that he was "called to the bar" under the English version of his name. He is known professionally and commonly as Séamus Woulfe. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Under the 'common name' policy on Wikipedia- there should be an acknowledgment that his birth/ legal name is James. There is a reference in the revision history to the following title - ' King's Inns Barristers, 1868-2004, ed. Kenneth Ferguson (Dublin: Hon. Soc. of King's Inns and the Irish Legal History Soc.2005. The title lists pages and pages of barristers (as you would expect from 1868-2004)- the page for 1987 list James (Seamus) Philip Woulfe. He elected to be called to the bar as 'James'. The pages for (say) Bill Clinton & Paul McCartney briefly refer to them as 'William' and 'James Paul' - so to ignore completely that it by birth/law- is James Philip Woulfe is not in keeping with the common name practice. 2A02:8084:255D:9380:400F:8F63:9355:4494 (talk) 21:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough - the citation must be included, but I have done this, to stop this circle, and because birth / legal names are indeed encyclopedic when properly referenced. I have included the year as a chapter pointer for now, as I have validated the book's provenance, and it is authoritative - but it would be nice to have the page number also. SeoR (talk) 22:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be pedantic, SeoR, but not fair enough :-) 1) WP:COMMONNAME applies to article titles, not content; and more importantly, 2) he may be listed in the cited book as "James (Seamus) (sic) Philip Woulfe" but that does not tell us that he elected to have been called to the bar under the English version of his name with the Irish version (missing a fada, for some reason) in brackets, and it certainly doesn't tell us that he was born "James Woulfe", which the edit then claimed. All we know for certain is that he's listed in the 'King's Inns Barristers' 2005 publication under both the English and Irish versions of his name. That's not due content. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Barrister provides the details on the call form. Virtually no one else is styled in that dual way in the Ferguson book. I don't for now want to name specific barristers not on Wikipedia but someone is either (say) Frank or Proinséas or as an example Patrick or Padraig. Virtually no one else is listed in that style as James (Seamus) Woulfe- there first name is either in English or Irish not both. That entry was made by Woulfe it means his legal name is James but he has chosen to be known as Seamus. ≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:60A0:5000:AC0E:9D2E:F5A9:5261 (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That entry was made by Woulfe it means his legal name is James but he has chosen to be known as Seamus. It means no such thing. Your legal name is the name is that you are commonly known by. You can also change your name by deed poll, if you so wish, but it isn't required. Please don't edit war. You need to gain WP:CONSENSUS for your edit - which you don't have. And you changed the entry to read "born James Woulfe", for which there is absolutely no proof, because the Ferguson book doesn't back that. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a matter deserving of so much time, I think. However, legal name has a very specific meaning, and it is the name on the birth certificate unless changed by deed poll. For the call to the bar / inner bar, you can use either your habitual professional name or your legal name - you can't, as I understand, just make up a "preferred version". So, as Seamus is the name (with or without the fada, depending on which source you're reading) used over virtually the subject's entire career, it does seem that James is the legal name. Nothing unusual about that, many Irish people swap between English and Irish forms. As I mentioned before, I remember that Seamus is also the name always used by the subject in the GAA, back into the 1980s, when the family still lived in greater Raheny (I have some vague recollection it might have been Harmonstown before, but later Howth Road). My position would be that I prefer to see complete data as far as sources allow - but of course the main thing is the commonly used name, which is, without a shadow of a doubt, Seamus, which remains both article title and start-of-lede. There are plenty of other areas in which the article can be expanded, let's not get bogged down on this. SeoR (talk) 00:12, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is a small, minor issue but in keeping with other entries such as Bartholomew Patrick "Bertie" Ahern it needs to be recorded that Woulfe was born James Philip Woulfe. The initial response in this part of the chat was where's the source. The source is then provided and someone other than me changes his entry after a reasonable bit of discussion to show his birth name within the text of the article rather than as a heading. Someone else then decides to change it back. Barristers do not habitually list the Irish and English version of their names on their call form. If you look at (say) the former politician Alex White's entry under those called to the Bar in 1987 (as per the cited Ferguson book) it does not say Alsander (Alexander) or Alexander (Alsander) White. This point stands for 99% of the entries- there is a given first name and it is in English or Irish. An entry of James (Seamus) arises where the birth name is James but the 'known by name' is Seamus. No more. No less. No other explanation. The fact that some barristers and judges have legal and 'known by names' (as with anyone else in population) is as per start of this post not a major issue but for the same point there is no reason to ignore it. I can not recall the details but from memory there was some jocular reference on the retirement of a supreme court judge, within the last decade, to the fact that his legal name was different to the 'known by name' he was known by. As with Bartholomew Patrick 'Bertie' Ahern there details are recorded on Wikipedia when known. 2A02:8084:60A0:5000:113F:2629:6919:A5B2 (talk) 06:55, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are essentially asserting "His birth name must have been James because nobody else did this one thing." That's WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS. Not to mention irony, considering such "evidence" in a court case would be dismissed immediately. Just no. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:58, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]