Talk:The Ross Sisters

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A much higher quality video than the one supplied as a reference in the article is at url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNR74UCidBI 69.18.50.85 (talk) 04:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The reference given for what I suppose are the sisters married names no longer exists, and to say married name rather than real name might be better.

Births, marriages and deaths

There is clearly some confusion. Other sources have the youngest sister marrying Dickie Henderson and dying young. I shall try to sort out the most likely permutation. LynwoodF (talk) 16:08, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Veda Victoria Henderson appears to have died in 1963, but there is evidence that Dixie Jewel Ross also died the same day. Might they have died in the same accident? Is there anyone with a long memory who recalls a news item? LynwoodF (talk) 16:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

It is now pretty clear to me that Veda and Dixie died on the same day, which was Veda's 15th wedding anniversary. LynwoodF (talk) 20:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Apparently Betsy Ann died in her native Texas, but I do not have a date. LynwoodF (talk) 12:58, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I find no evidence that Dixie ever married. There is a false record online of her marrying Dickie Henderson in 1948, but this is clearly a mistake, as there is clear evidence that Veda married him. LynwoodF (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that's quite right. Perhaps not strictly reliable - but, according to information on Ancestry.com, possibly supplied by family members:

• Betsy Ann "Aggie" Ross died in Tyler County, Texas, at an unknown date
• Veda Victoria "Maggie" Ross died in 2010 in Orlando, Florida. She was married twice - to Robert Alfred Lamouret in Paris in 1950, with whom she had two children, and then to Robert "Bob" Sherman Hender in Florida in 1959. Confirmation of this is suggested by the fact that there are private individuals now living in Florida using the names ..... Lamouret Hender.
• Dixie Jewell Ross died in London in 1963. She married Richard Matthew "Dickie" Henderson in 1948; they had two children, as listed at the Dickie Henderson article. He remarried after her death.

Hope this helps. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:06, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I too have the information about Betsy Ann, but I am at odds with you about the other two. Dixie Jewel's burial record gives her maiden name, Ross. However, the death of a Veda Victoria Henderson on 10 July 1963 is recorded. Please see my personal wiki. As a result of poor experiences when researching the Caley family of Windsor, I am very wary of what I read on the Ancestry website. LynwoodF (talk) 13:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Curiouser and curiouser. My view of Ancestry is that it's about as reliable as Wikipedia - usually pretty good but by no means infallible! I've now checked the BMD records and they do indeed show Veda as marrying Dickie Henderson in 1948. But I simply don't believe that they both died on the same day in 1963, without something being reported. The Spanish WP article, for what it's worth, has the same details as me, as does this thread and indeed many forums. There's some information on Robert Lamouret here and here - he appeared on the same bill as the sisters in 1949 here but I haven't found anything linking him explicitly to either sister. Are we getting to the point where we need to say "sources differ"? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

PS: "Portrait of the comedian Dickie Henderson and his wife Dixie" - here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

PPS: Betsy with husband Robert "Bunny" Hightower here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I am afraid this is all just a case of duff information proliferating itself. It has been going on for ages, but has got worse since the advent of the internet. Well, clearly, sources differ, but I think we need to go by the more reliable ones such as official records of marriage, birth of children, death and probate. In the case of Vickie they all seem to tally. There seems to be no doubt that the two sisters died the same day. Dixie's burial record looks reliable. Strangely I have a rather vague memory from decades ago. Back in the 60s I lived a lot of the time in France, but in July 63 I was actually in England and I recall an item on the BBC radio news some decades ago about the wife of a well-known entertainer dying in a road accident in London along with her sister. Both women were part of an act. The memory is far too vague to put forward as evidence, but it might be of this sad incident. I hope some brave soul will have the courage to trawl through the newspapers for 11 July. If it happened, it would be in them. Dickie Henderson was a big name on television at that time. LynwoodF (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the picture's confused by sites that have gained their information from here, but I don't share your certainty over the simultaneous deaths of the sisters. I think that is simply the result of confusion in different sources. This and the BMD record indicates that Henderson was married to Veda Victoria; but this indicates that he was married to Dixie, who was the mother of his children - which is supported by user-sourced genealogy details such as this:

VEDA CORDELIA LIPHAM b 1905 Wedowee ALA m 24/12/1922 Married CHARLES ADOLPHUS ROSS b. 9/4/1902 Colorado City, Texas d. 6/5/1955 Palm Springs, Calif. 1. Betsy Ann Ross b. 20/6/1926 Colorado City, Tx. Married Bunny Hightower. Children; Dana (m) + ? 2. Veda Victoria (Vickie) Ross b. 8/11/1927 Roscoe Tx. Married Robert Lamouret 10/3/1950 in Paris. Children: Annette (Nini) and Elizabeth (Zabette). 2nd marriage to Bob Hender 3. Dixie Jewel Ross b. 9/8/1929 Loraine Tx. Married 10/7/1948 to Richard (Dickie) Henderson. d. 10/7/1963. Buried Gunnersbury cemetary, London, England. Children: Matthew (b 2/8/1951) and Linda (b. 11/9/54)

If Veda and Dixie had died on the same day, I believe the user-sourced information, in particular, would show it - it doesn't, although I think the idea that Veda died in 2010 may indeed be false. (There was a Veda V. Ross who died in January 2010, but she was born in 1923 and lived in Missouri, so I'm sure it's a different person, but has confused someone on the Ancestry site.) No-one suggests that Henderson married both sisters; all the evidence is that one of the sisters married Henderson, and another sister married Lamouret and then Hender; different reliable sources (as well as less reliable sources) give different answers. So, in my view we have no option but to spell out the uncertainty in the article, rather than appearing to be certain over a matter which is uncertain. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I am afraid I am more inclined to rely on official sources than on sites like Ancestry, which has let me down badly in the past. We have a definite record of the marriage of Dickie Henderson and Vickie in 1948 and of her death in 1963. This suggests that someone has confused Vickie and Dixie at some point. Now if Vickie was already married to Henderson by 1950 and continued to be so until her death, I have no faith in the assertion that she married someone else in 1950. However, I cannot find out how long Betsy Ann's marriage to Hightower lasted and, given that there is a suggestion that he mistreated her, it is possible that it soon ended and that she entered into two further marriages. I am more inclined to believe in simple confusion between Vickie and Dixie and between Aggie and Maggie than in the unreliability of official records. I started off doubting the content of the article and in the end have changed very little. Most of it checks out as it stands. There are gaps, but I cannot find reliable enough information to fill them. LynwoodF (talk) 18:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Some readers will have seen other information on other sites. It's a question of whether we address the confusion and explain it to them, or simply pretend it doesn't exist. I suggest including, in the article text (rather than as a footnote), words like:

"Sources differ over the marriages and deaths of the sisters. Official sources indicate a marriage between Dickie Henderson and Vickie in 1948, although some other sources refer to his wife as Dixie;[1] and refer to Vickie as having married, first, ventriloquist Robert Lamouret in Paris in 1950, and then Bob Hender in 1959.[2]"

Per Wikipedia:Conflicting sources (which I know is only an opinion), "If the conflict cannot be resolved by demonstrating the conflicting source(s) to be unreliable, in order to maintain a neutral point of view, include both. In those cases, it is up to the reader to choose which source they want to believe personally and not the task of Wikipedia editors to choose for them. Instead the article should contain a mention that different information exists". Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

If you wish to add your suggested paragraph to the end of the Biographies section or higher up, if you think that would work better, I should be happy to go along with that. It will explain the problem we have been racking our brains over. LynwoodF (talk) 20:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I've given it a go. Remind me - do you have any information that says explicitly that both sisters died on the same day? We know that Henderson's wife died in 1963 and that, according to official sources, she was Vickie (Veda Victoria). We also have the FindaGrave information that Dixie died on that day - but I would have thought it likely that that information (user-sourced) would have come from people that say or assume that she was Henderson's wife. It's all highly confusing. I don't think there's any real confusion over Betsy, other than not knowing when she died (or indeed if she is still alive). Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:53, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that with circumspection. Frustratingly, I have not been able to find a better death record for Dixie, but I do not live too far from Gunnersbury and could catch the bus up there one fine sunny day to see what it actually says on the grave. So you may be hearing from me again. It struck me that we find nothing about Dixie after July 1963, so she could well have died about that time. Someone has now come up with the notion that she died of lung cancer, but gives no supporting evidence. LynwoodF (talk) 23:01, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

No problem. I love these mysteries, but it's frustrating not finding the answers! I'm also confused over their names - see below.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Names

This photo caption from 1946 gives their names simply as Betsy, Vicky and Dixie Ross - clearly the names by which they were publicly known at the time, and close to their birth names. Where, and when (and indeed why) were the names Aggie, Maggie and Elmira used? Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I had wondered when they stopped using the stage names and it now seems that it was quite early on. The impression I had was that they were using them for the 1944 film and perhaps they dropped them after that. Of course, I might have got the wrong end of the stick. LynwoodF (talk) 23:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The original version of this article (and the current version) sourced the names Aggie, Maggie and Elmira from this blog. Do we have reliable sources - pre-dating the creation of this article in 2009 - that use those names? My sense is that we should downplay the use of those names, if they were more commonly known as Betsy, Vicky (with a "y" not "ie") and Dixie. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

You are probably right about the spelling Vicky. The "ie" ending could be due to contamination by the name Dickie. I have had a good look at the pictures you found and, assuming the names are in the right order on the 1946 one, the woman in the 1956 photo is most likely to be Vicky. When I saw the now famous video, I assumed the shorter one in the middle was Dixie and not yet fully grown. However, two years on she is markedly shorter than the others. I agree with you that the pseudonyms should be played down. Maybe they were imposed by the producers of the film and quickly dropped. Judging by the IMDb page for the film, these names were used in the credits. LynwoodF (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

My feeling is that if they were only credited as Aggie, Maggie and Elmira in that one film, we should say that. It's surprising - and disappointing - that there don't seem to be any other sources crediting them individually for any of their other professional work, such as on stage. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I've now changed the wording around to give precedence to their real names. I don't mind if you want to change it back again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I think you have done a good job there. It is now much better balanced. The sun is shining here, but I am busy at the moment with year-end accounts. People say, "You're retired now. Would you like to be...?" So I am now Hon. Auditor/Independent Examiner for various organizations. The trip to Gunnersbury will have to wait a while, but I should love to see the wording on any grave(s) that may be there. LynwoodF (talk) 12:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Further discussion

Discussion below copied from User talk:Ghmyrtle#The Ross Sisters:

Because you did so much work on the sisters, I thought I should let you know first what I have discovered. Now that the weather is warmer and drier, I decided to investigate Gunnersbury Cemetery. I rang them and they told me what I was by now expecting to hear, that they do not have Dixie Jewel Ross, but they do have Veda Victoria Henderson. So I hopped on a bus and went there this afternoon to see the inscription with my own eyes. The wording came as quite a shock. (Please see the second attachment on my Ross Sisters page.)

Clearly Vicky was known as Dixie in the latter part of her life, which explains the caption on the Getty Images family portrait and also the general confusion about which sister married Dickie Henderson.

Would you like to amend your very circumspect wording in the article, or would you prefer me to have a go at it?

LynwoodF (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to be away for the next few days, so I'm happy for you to make amendments as you see fit, and I'll try to get my head around it all again next week! But, in the mean time, I've had another quick look at Ancestry.com, and found:

• US Department of State, Report of the Death of an American Citizen. London, July 31, 1963. Veda Victoria Henderson. Occupation: Housewife. Born: Roscoe, Texas, November 8, 1927. Date of death: July 10, 10.30 am, 1963. On way to St Mary's Hospital, Kensington... Cause of death: Certified by Coroner to be Barbiturate poisoning (sodium amytal). Insufficient evidence as to the circumstances. Open verdict. Buried at Gunnersbury Cemetery.... Person responsible for custody: Mr. Richard M.M. Henderson, Husband.

So, that clearly indicates that her age was 35 - not 33 as on the family inscription, which is also curious.

There are also family trees on the Ancestry.com site - some of which are at least as confused as we are. The important thing about them is that they give links to official source documents.

For example, there is a US Social Security Death Index for Eva V. Hender, born 26 June 1926, died in Florida 29 May 2002. This is the same person as Eva Vicki Lamouret, who married Robert Sherman Hender in 1959. The sister who was born on 26 June 1926 was recorded at birth as Eva, but in the 1930 census was recorded as Betsy Ann Ross - with two younger sisters, Victoria Ross and Dixie J. Ross.

There are also copies of Texas birth certificates for Veda Victoria Ross, born 8 November 1927, and Dixie Jewell Ross, born 9 August 1929.

My brain hurts, and I've only looked at a few of the official records!! My only point at this stage is that I don't think we've yet come with the definitive answer as to who was who - and it looks to me as though others who have tried to research the genealogy have come up with similar problems. My guess is simply that the family - both the parents and the girls - swapped their names around at various times, simply to confuse people.... I suppose that might also explain why their apparent stage names (Aggie, Maggie and Elmira - though I haven't yet seen a good source for those names) are different again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:55, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Your guess is much the same as mine - that they played about with their names. The American record of Vicky's death is very informative. In particular, it fits in with the recollection which had been gradually forming in my head, that Vicky died of an overdose and that she had been distressed about the death of her sister. If Dixie also died young, that would explain why we have no information about her from after 1963. Also, I had long suspected that it was Betsy Ann who had married Lamouret and Hender after her disastrous first marriage. LynwoodF (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• From The Independent, San Gabriel Valley, Pasadena, July 11, 1963:

DRUG DEATH REPORTED

Dixie Henderson, 33-year old Texas-born wife of Dickie Henderson, one of Britain's top comedians, died in a London hospital yesterday after taking what was believed to be an overdose of drugs.

• Their parents - Charles Adolphus Ross (1902-1955) married Veda Cordelia Arretta Lipham in 1922. But Charles was remarried in 1949, to Hettie E. Morris. It seems (though I haven't seen a reliable source) that mother Veda was remarried to someone called Matteson....
• From Orlando Sentinel, 28 March 2000:

Obituary: VEDA MATTESON, 94, Casa Blanca Lane, Orlando, died Friday, March 24. Mrs. Matteson was a homemaker. Born in Wedowee, Ala., she moved to Central Florida in 1995. She was Baha'i Faith. Survivors: daughter, Eva V. Hender, Maitland; seven grandchildren; nine great-grandchildren. Carey Hand Cox-Parker Funeral Home, Winter Park.

• So, it appears that "Eva Vicki Hender" (= Betsy Ann?) was the only daughter still alive in 2000.
• From Florida Divorce Records: Robert C and Betsy Hightower divorced in 1957.
• From Florida Marriage Records: Burnice Cleveland Hightower married Dorothy Jean Ross in Broward County, Florida in 1969.
• Robert C and Burnice C Hightower are the same person....
• From The Daily Intelligencer, June 1, 1970:

WIDOW, SON, INHERIT ESTATE. A Solebury widow and her son will inherit a $4,500 personal estate and $80,000 in real estate holdings, according to letters of administration granted in the Bucks County Register of Wills Office. Burnice also known as Robert C. Hightower... His personal estate... will be shared by his widow, Dorothy J. Hightower... and a son....

• The person who compiled the family tree obviously believes that "Betsy Ross" (= Hightower) and "Dorothy Jean Ross" (= Hightower) are one and the same person, but I can't find any independent evidence for that. Also...
• From US Social Security Death Records: Dorothy J. Hightower, born 21 November 1924, died 21 November 1996 in Troup, Smith, Texas, USA (having previously lived in Florida)
• That birth date doesn't correspond with any dates we can find otherwise, and the coincidence of both dates being 21 November may be an error. But... 1924??

Must go now......  !! Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I hope that by the time you read this you have had an enjoyable break. Thank you for all the work you have done in the last couple of days. I am now trying to digest the information. I suspect that Dorothy Jean Ross is a separate person and just happened to have the same surname as Hightower's previous wife. The divorce record date is too late for our theory about Betsy, unless the Paris marriage was bigamous!

After mulling it over for several weeks I am now pretty sure that Vicky's death is the incident I remember. The cause of death came as no surprise to me. Personally I am not keen to mention the cause or the inquest verdict in the article. The son and daughter and any other descendants appear to have kept out of all this and I would not wish to distress them. I am one of several editors who have been removing the name of the husband of Prof. Alice Roberts when it periodically appears in the article on her. He requested anonymity and I for one respect his wishes. A distressing death is an even more sensitive matter.

LynwoodF (talk) 09:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I have attempted to explain the inconsistencies as I see them. If you wish to change or add anything, please feel free. I am afraid I have left you to supply references for the bit about Betsy Ann. If you prefer, please delete or replace those sentences. That is entirely your research.

LynwoodF (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

It is even more difficult and complicated than we had thought! Looking at it again, I have found an earlier birth, of Dorothy Gem Ross, born to the same parents on 21 November (sic!) 1924, died of whooping cough 14 July 1925. And, a reference in a November 1948 transit document to Eva known as Vicki Ross (also, sic!). Until I've got to the bottom of all this to my satisfaction, I won't edit your current text. I think, though, I should transfer this discussion to the article talk page, in case anyone else wants to follow up or clarify (it's likely that children and grandchildren are still alive). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I had not expected this conversation to develop in this way. I merely wanted to let you know first what I had discovered. So perhaps you are right that the discussion should be transferred. However, as mentioned before, I hope we do not cause any distress to the family. The whole business is growing more fascinating the deeper we search, but it could revive some painful memories. LynwoodF (talk) 11:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Did you read this?:

This thread [at http://www.janetcharltonshollywood.com/] (and many others elsewhere) carries a lot of speculation and conjecture based on a little accurate info and a lot of inaccurate info with no substantiating evidence. Where most of the inaccuracy comes from is simply because of something the mother of the Ross Sisters did a long time ago for reasons that likely had to do with the girls’ ages when they started performing. My research is based somewhat on Ancestry.com data, but mostly on official national and state records as well as newspaper accounts to corroborate my findings. The Ross parents, Charles and Veda, actually had 4 daughters. The first was Dorothy Jean, born 25 Nov 1924, but died of whoooping cough 14 Jul 1925. Betsy Ann’s birth certificate has her born 26 Jun 1926 simply as Eva…looks like the Betsy (Elizabeth) Ann was added later. Veda Victoria came next 8 Nov 1927, followed by Dixie Jewell on 9 Aug 1929…Texas birth and death certificates confirm all this. I believe when they went to London in Sep 1946 to perform, that is when they each assumed the identity and birthdate of the next oldest sister…likely for passport reasons. Informally they continued to use their Betsy/Vicki/Dixie names, but formally their legal names became Dorothy Jean/Eva V/Veda V. All subsequent legal records reflect this. That is why Dixie’s marriage and death records in England list her as Veda V Henderson. All of their travel records showing entry back into the USA also reflect their new assumed legal identities. For example, Betsy’s marriage to Robert Bunny Hightower is well documented in the news, but her travel records show her as Dorothy Jean with a 25 Nov 1924 birthdate. I could go on and on, but I won’t…those of you with Ancestry accounts can find my finding if you look hard enough. Basically, what happened to them is Dixie died 10 Jul 1963 of a drug overdose in London leaving behind her husband Dickie Henderson and two children Matthew and Linda. Betsy had a son named Dana in 1948 from her marriage to Robert Hightower (who’s real given name was Burnice Cleveland Hightower). He divorced her in 1957 and settled in New Hope, PA. She met and married Spanish businessman Rony Abagi and had a daughter Helena Ann in 1962 and another daughter Veda Elizabeth in 1965. Helena married and settled in Troup, Texas. Veda married and settled in the Orlando, FL area. Betsy divorced Rony Abagi in 1969 and remarried Hightower, who was terminally ill. Hightower passed away in April 1970. Betsy never remarried, eventually went to live in Texas with her daughter Helena, and passed away 21 Nov 1996. Vicki married Robert Lamouret in Paris around 1949 or 1950. They attended her father’s remarriage in Feb 1949 as “Mr. and Mrs. Robert Lamouret”, hence the uncertainty. They had two daughters Annette and Elisabeth who both reside in Florida. Robert died in Mar 1959 and Eva Vicki Lamouret married Robert Sherman in Oct 1959. They subsequently divorced in 1973 and she passed away in Maitland, FL on 29 May 2002. Their father Charles passed away in Palm Springs, CA on 6 May 1955 while their mother Veda Cordelia lived to the age of 94 before passing away in Orlando on 24 Mar 2000. So there you have it, all three of these amazing talents have passed away, but their legacy will endure forever… By YetAnotherTexan
Correction… Vicki’s remarriage was to Robert Sherman Hender.

That seems to line up closely with the conclusions that I am coming to. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:35, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I looked at that site some time ago before that was posted. It does seem to give a coherent explanation which deals with all the apparent inconsistencies. If it is all true, I have clearly been mistaken in assuming that the official records would be reliable. This could well make the taller slimmer one in the middle of the 1946 photo Dixie (she looks more like the "Dixie" in the 1956 photo), whereas I had assumed that she was the shortest of the three. However, we would no longer have a problem with the Lamouret marriage. The article needs further amendment! LynwoodF (talk) 13:48, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree - I'm working on it. I don't think, for example, that the statement that "Clearly Vicky was commonly known as Dixie at the time of her death" is accurate; it is more likely to be the case that it is Dixie (b.1929) who was married to Henderson, but that she had been using the legal name of her older sister Veda Victoria. But, it's going to be a challenge coming up with an appropriate form of words! Ghmyrtle (talk)13:57, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I wish you well. You did a good job last time, covering the various inconsistencies pretty adequately. LynwoodF (talk) 14:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on this. I have gone through it quickly and can see nothing wrong, but I shall go through it more carefully later on and let you have any comments. LynwoodF (talk) 08:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I have been busy with accounts again, but I have now had a chance to go through the article more carefully. Everything slots together now. The 1946 passenger list information is pretty convincing. One tiny little point - do you have evidence that Hightower was specifically a ballet dancer? All the references to him that I have come across call him a "dancer" and I had assumed that he was what I should call a "show dancer", rather like Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly. One source describes him as performing with Vera-Ellen, but otherwise I have no evidence for my assumption. LynwoodF (talk) 11:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I can't now find the source I had, but I think it was from a blog - anyway, I can't find it elsewhere so it's best if I remove that word. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)