Talk:Korazim Plateau

What would be a better name? Ramat Korazim or Korazim Plateau?

Can't decide. Seems reliable sources (sometimes by the same author) use both names. ("Ramat" is "Plateau" in Hebrew).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:21, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

I would go with Plateau based on gbook hits, but it is close. Either way you need to mention the orpther one as an alt and redirect.Icewhiz (talk) 22:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Southern border

Either it's the Sea of Galilee, or the plateau includes Tel Kinrot and Mt of Beatitudes, but it can't be both. Arminden (talk) 05:01, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Arminden, I don't get it. Tel Kinrot and Mt. of Beatitudes are both on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. If the southern border is at the Sea of Galilee it will include Tel Kinrot and Mt of Beatitudes.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 06:17, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Bolter21, hi. In my mind, if X marks the southern border of Y, Y ends at the northernmost point of X. According to your view, if Moshavat Kinneret or Tzemach were part of the plateau, this wouldn't contradict the statement either. This makes no sense to me. Arminden (talk) 16:06, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Arminden, Alright, I kind of get it now. This article was created at a time both my English and my Geographic skills were weaker. This is a very simple issue of wording. Israel borders the Mediterranean, but this doesn't mean Gibraltar is part of Israel. The article states: "the borders of the plateau are the Hula Valley to the north, the Sea of Galilee to the south, the Jordan River to the east, which separates it from the Golan Heights, and to the west by Mount Canaan, as well as parts of the Safed Mountains." The Korazim Plateau is a plateau, as the sources and the article say, it is bordered clockwise by a mountain, a valley, a river, and a shoreline. There is also a map that shows explicitly where these borders are. The confusion, I suppose, is that the Sea of Galilee is mentioned as one of the borders and thus it is not clear whether it is within or outside the said region. The solution to this confusion is to change the wording to something like "The plateau is bounded by the Hula Valley to the north, the Jordan River and the Golan Heights to the east, the northern shore of the Sea of Galilee to the south and the the Canaan and Safed mountains" and thus imply that all of the regions and features mentioned are not part of the Korazim plateau to the west".

Does this solve the issue in your view?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Bolter21, good morning and thank you. I have two issues here: one, there are very different definitions of the plateau's extent, so one map can only cover one of them; and two, if we agree that the wording is the problem, then "bordering on the north-west shore of the SoG [down to...]" would be my solution, that would be accurate. The "down to..." bit only if we know the southern limit - do you? I certainly don't.

I didn't check the editing history, so I wasn't aware that you did (some? most? all?) of the work here. If so, could you please check & fill in the source for the Chalcolithic, Bronze Age, and "Modern settlement" sections? It could be that they've been separated from it when the section headings were introduced. Thank you. Arminden (talk) 08:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Arminden, Oy vey, what a mess. I have re-read the sources and realized how bad I have read them four years ago. So the Ministry of Environmental Protection defines the borders as such: Safed and Naftalie Mountains (west), Hula Valley (north), Jordan River (east), Sea of Galilee excluding the narrow coastal strip of up to 600 meters (south). This definition indeed includes both Kinrot and MoB. I have added a link to the region as it appears on GovMap. The IAA survey on the other hand included some parts to the west because of the way IAA surveys work, and therefore also the shoreline of the SoG. I have confirmed this by measuring the areas on Google Earth and indeed the MEP's boundries give ~117 sqm and the IAA boundaries give ~135 sqm. The correct territory is the MEP and the map I've created is actually a mix of the two. I have changed the wording of the map to simply state it shows the KP "roughly". Sadly, I really have no time right now to create a new map. I have also removed the definition of Mapa. I believe this website has been terminated. It would be best to keep the natural definition of the MEP and the extent of the archaeological survey. I have left the citations of Mapa in the lead and the last sections (they are accessible through the Wayback Machine. I have added the citations. It seems that someone who is not myself (though maybe it is) has separated the sections. I would have loved to re-read the sources and re-write the entire article, but exam season is beginning next Sunday. As for the last tag about the modern settlements, I can't think of a source that will support that. These are just the settlements that appear on the maps. Do you think linking to the official maps will be satisfactory?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Geology

The first thing that matters is: what is it geologically and how & when was it created? What we have now in the article is only secondary, such as: age & type of surface lava flows (cover) and effect of limiting the extent of the Sedom Lagoon. It's like dealing with a person and focusing on the dress.

Is it a pressure ridge in its entirety? As of now we have 3 definitions, for an area of either 135, 117, or 80 km², which makes any further work impossible w/o strictly qualifying what one refers to. What tectonic processes or events have created the pressure ridge and when? A pressure ridge is the result of pressure leading to a "pileup", we're inside the Dead Sea Transform, and the Korazim Plateau sits between two pull-apart basins holding the Hula and Sea of Galilee lakes respectively; this much is clear, nothing else is.

In this same context: what is the Korazim block? Is it identical with the Korazim Plateau, or just a part of it? If the latter: all the same questions again (origin, date and so forth). Arminden (talk) 08:46, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

DEFINITION first! We have none, really.

As of now we have 3 wildly different "definitions", or rather areas, covering either 135, 117, or 80 km²! That's no way to go about things in an encyclopedia. Probably nothing that can be said about the 80 km² area can be said about the 135 km² one, and vice versa. Maybe there's a very simple definition after all, dealing with a topographically distinct plateau (even though the Mount of Beatitudes, which looks more like a tentacle extending out of it, and the ridge ending in Tel Kinrot, is indicative of a bit more than that); but then we need clear(er) borders.

What is the unifying element? The lead gives a definition ("volcanic plateau") later contradicted in the text ("The northern third of the plateau is characterized by lower hills of limestone, conglomerate and some young basalt"). If almost one third in the north (and maybe more elsewhere) is not volcanic, the plateau is hardly "volcanic" as a whole. This on top of the fact that it's not made clear that the plateau is not genetically volcanic, but the result of tectonic movements, with a partial cover of volcanic rock.

Mapa (in Hebrew) has it "stretch[ing] between Nahal Mahanayim in the north and the Kinneret Valley in the south, and the Jordan Valley in the east and the slopes of the Safed Mountains and Mount Canaan in the west" (Google translation). What does it mean by "the Kinneret Valley in the south", a) does the Hebrew usage of "Kinneret Valley" cover the entire west shore of the lake? and b) shall we understand that the Korazim Plateau includes any of it (Bolter's initial take), or that it stops north of it (my understanding of it; would fit with the lesser surface area)?

The 3 versions

• Stepansky worked for the IAA, maybe his criteria were those of an archaeologist (cultural geography).
• The Ministry of Environmental Protection probably goes by their own criteria.
• Mapa might be the less reliable source – or the opposite, if it's reflecting the more general, popular usage of the term.

Having several definitions is not the ultimate no-no (although it complicates things considerably), as long as all the definitions are clearly stated and differentiated in the intro (lead), and every section makes clear to which definition it refers to.

IMPORTANT: What is the Korazim block? Is it identical with the Korazim Plateau, or just a part of it? Arminden (talk) 09:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)