Talk:Raj'a

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Ahmadinejad's saying

This sentences don't have any relation to shia's beliefs and it's better used in other appropriate parts.

The belief in raj'a was controversially expressed following the death and state funeral of Hugo Chávez on 5 March 2013, when Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stated his belief that Chavez would be one of the individuals resurrected following the return of the Mahdi and Jesus. Ahmadinejad's words were criticized by several Iranian clerics.^[1]^[2]

Saff V. (talk) 06:14, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

Bahai faith

Hi, Apaugasma! Thank you for your edits and improvements to this article. Noticed that you restored the Bahai content even though Bahai faith is not a subsect of Islam (Bahais also don't view themselves as Muslims) and the opening sentence of the article is "Rajʿa ... is a doctrine in Shia Islam..." Please consider addressing this inconsistency. About the historic roots mentioned in your edit summary, that is perhaps not a factor here because, with the same logic, Christianity should be considered a subsect of Judaism (see here). For me, removing the Bahai content solved this same issue based on the above reasoning but you might have better ideas on how to resolve it. Thanks again! Albertatiran (talk) 08:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a Shi'i concept that was later used in the Baha'i faith. That's not inconsistent. Yes, Christianity originated as a subsect of Judaism and shares many concept and ideas with it, including the major part of its scripture. See, for example, Holy Spirit, which starts as follows:

In Judaism, the Holy Spirit is the divine force, quality, and influence of God over the Universe or over His creatures. In Nicene Christianity, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. In Islam, the Holy Spirit acts as an agent of divine action or communication. In the Baha’i Faith, the Holy Spirit is seen as the intermediary between God and man and “the outpouring grace of God and the effulgent rays that emanate from His Manifestation”.

It's perfectly normal for a concept in one religion to have a notable afterlife in other religions that spring from it. How the concept is understood in one religion can be handled in separate articles if need be, like we have Holy Spirit in Judaism, Holy Spirit in Christianity and Holy Spirit in Islam. Now I personally think that the case for having such separate articles is dubious (often such articles exist simply because they can, and because there is not enough push-back against editors creating POV forks for their own favorite religious tradition), but one thing that will certainly not happen is that –say– the Christian, Islamic and Baha'i concepts of Holy Spirit are excised from Holy Spirit because it is an originally Jewish concept.

So while creating Raj'a in Shi'i Islam and Raj'a in Baha'i Faith would be even more dubious, one thing that will not happen is for the Baha'i concept of raj'a to be excised from Raj'a because it is an orginally Shi'i concept. That is, if indeed there is a concept of raj'a in Baha'i faith that goes back on the Shi'i concept: I did not check this in the source given nor in any other source, but assumed good faith on the part of the editor who originally added it. Obviously this needs more looking into.

As for how it's currently handled in the lead, I think it's fine. We start by saying that it's a Shi'i concept because that is indeed what the great majority of the article will be about. Its use in the very recent Baha'i faith is more of an afterthought, and introducing it in the last paragraph of the lead as The concept was later also used in the Baháʼí Faith (19th century) to designate the cyclical return of the Manifestation of God seems perfectly fine to me for the moment. The proper solution here is to expand the article with reliably sourced information on the relationship between the Shi'i concept and the Baha'i concept. If it is found that there is no such relationship, it should be removed from the article. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 12:20, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok! I'm convinced :) Might try to look into the sources cited in the Bahai section to learn more about the connection but that's for later. Albertatiran (talk) 14:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/06/hugo-chavez-return-resurrection-ahmadinejad

[2] ttps://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/08/us-iran-ahmadinejad-chavez-idUSBRE9270TP20130308

[1]

[2]