Talk:Native Americans in German popular culture

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A fact from Native Americans in German popular culture appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 24 December 2014 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that due to the peculiar role of Native Americans in German popular culture, "Indianer reenactment" (pictured) was quite common in communist East Germany?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2014/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Popular image of Native Americans in German speaking countries.

Wikipedia

101st Airborne

The photo of the paratroopers of the 101st spreads a myth - a couple actually:

a) that there were many U.S. paratroopers on D-Day and afterwards wearing Mohawks haircuts and "warpaint", and b) the haircuts were done in emulation of "Indian" culture. It may be - sources to the contrary - this was not the case at all.

One source indicates the following:

There was only one stick that wore face paint. It was from the 101. It was NOT a pathfinder stick. It was one stick of the 506 PIR Demolitions Platoon that contained the "Filthy 13". The paint was wet whit and black invasion stripe paint that one man accidentally got on his hands and the resulting "boys will be boys" follow up. It was not planned.

A large number of 101 men, seldom in large groups, elected to wear mowhawk cuts. It had nothing to do with being indian, it was just viewed as cool/scary. Many, if not most, removed them while still in Normandy. It was seldom done by 101 men after Normandy – the new men were unlikely to do anything to stand out in front of the veterans, and the veterans were over such nonsense – which is why the 82 did little of it in Normandy, at least in the veteran PIR.

If the photos of the 101st are to be included, the onus is on the editor to include a source tying them to Indian culture. Even at that, I'm not sure what it has to do with German popular culture?96.51.16.28 (talk) 01:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Was using a mohawk to intimidate the enemy playing on the German Indianer image or the one of US Americans? I think it was a shared one. When Moltke the elder was with McClellan, he was quite impressed about logistics (and used what he had learned about the use of railways at Königgrätz), but fighting spirit was much more associated with the South - an impression shared by others. That said, I intended the use of the picture as proof of the image conveying an image, not at all to claim that all paratroopers had a mohawk. Which is and was, as you say, not the case. Insofar I ask to reinstall the image, but try a better caption. Btw compare Bayume Mohamed Husen and the Māori Battalion for similar projections on other minorities. Serten II (talk) 21:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Indianer vs Inder

The article mentions '"Indians" in the stereotypic sense'. If they mean east-indians ie people from India, then there is a problem. The word "Indianer" would not be used for them in German, the word "Inder" would apply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.216.92.139 (talk) 02:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified. Serten II (talk) 19:46, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating article

I recently created Nick of the Woods, a popular 1837 novel, which was also popular in a German translation by Gustav Höcker. The book is notable today because Indians were depicted as very dishonorable.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 04:36, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely anti-German treatise. The German's love for Native Americans is pulled into the dirt. The positive feeling that Germans have when reading Karl May's Winnetou books is ultimately racism lol. When will the hostilities against Germans finally stop? 2001:16B8:5C2A:7800:E9E8:6C83:1218:DE6 (talk) 06:13, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cool! Me kill all white man! I have to think about the connection, rather forgotten now. Serten II (talk) 05:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Karl May in the lede

This is not about Karl May. The fact that May was so successfull has to do with German ideas about Indianer being close to them, a sort of felt familiarity as pointed out by the scholarly sources and the rest of the article. To put some fringe sources in the lede is WP:Undue Weight and as well a misrepresantion of the overall content. I ask to delete it. Polentarion Talk 22:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done so. Btw, you don't need to be there to write cool fiction. Or did Gene Roddenberry ever see Vulcan? Polentarion Talk 03:43, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with Native American hobbyism in Germany

POV Fork without its own merit Polentarion Talk 00:14, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

information /lobby groups

Are there any informative or similar lobby groups that are rectifying and explaining this stereotypic image of native Americans? it really pains me that you can't evade this romanticised, fantasy, adventure image of native americans in German products. It is very pervasive indeed you'll find it everywhere in books, on lunchboxes and clothes etc. also they are called "Indianer" as if they were some kind of fantasy creatures like dragons and fairies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.106.100.93 (talk) 11:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Desire a treatment of intersectionality between Native and German Americans

Hi, I think this article could benefit from additional sections detailing this phenomenon as it relates/related to German immigrants to the United States. For example, some Germans today marry American Indians and move to the United States. This also occurred a century ago on reservations, where Dawes Act era German settlers moved to reservations. Some married into the native population, but rather than passing for white they preserved/promoted elements of their culture. Also, some German Americans worship as/with Native Americans (for example, the Sun Dance), some Indians worship on what are dominantly ethnic German congregations located in/near reservations (some being founded due the Dawes Act settlements, others merely located near reservations). Another religious intersectionality are the Apache Lutherans. (Possibly some of these thoughts might be better as separate articles.)--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 03:46, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget Switzerland

I recall there being a giant teepee at Kleine Scheidegg (spelling?), a mountainside railway station near Lauterbrunnen in Switzerland. That's in a German-speaking part of the country (central Switzerland) and therefore relevant to this article...I wonder how much that Coca-Cola-sponsored teepee owes to Karl May and his successors. — Rickyrab. ^{Yada yada yada} 18:48, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mountainwanderer/3245400556 — Rickyrab. ^{Yada yada yada} 18:51, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Racist and partisan paragraph

Under German-American heritage, the final paragraph makes overtly racist remarks towards white people in a way that acts factual.

I don’t care if you want that divisive information in the article, but to act like “whiteness” is some universally accepted evil is blatantly racist.

I am not going to be petty and just insert my own bias into this page, but I think some of the writing here needs to be revised to prevent political statements in a sensitive area. GigaDerp (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not encyclopedic paragraphs in the beginning

The beginning of this very long article which reads all in all too much like a long abstract of an academic book definitly lacks what's required on wikipedia: information.

Older variations, such as this one are much better. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture&oldid=639435042

For a reader who would like to know about Native Americans in German popular culture, knowing about the projection of holocaust guilt in Native Reenactment or about the writing of Hartmut Lutz is totally secondary to the simple facts that one needs to even know what this is all about, which would be information about the role of Native Americans in German popular culture, not meta-discussions or analysis, which can follow later. To give an example: If this were an article about Polar Bears, you'd know from the first paragraphs how Global Warming and environmental damage endager them, but you'd still not know what Polar Bears even are.

Also, it is a principal failure to include two different monikers by the same person for Native American representation in German popular culture in the first paragraph. This article is a trainwreck (probably by an overtly enthusiastic PHD student), it needs to be revised.

I tried to do at least some of the work by a) removing overt meta-analysis and b) including at least tiny pieces of basic facts into the first paragraphs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saflid (talk • contribs)

Removed "Kulturkampf"

I removed the link to "Kulturkampf" in the first paragraph because it was highly misleading and linked to a description of the struggle over church authority in the German Empire. "Kulturkampf" is a term with different meanings in German, it's most important one being the conflict between Prussia and the Vatican. The meaning used here, "conflict between cultures", is much a much more esoteric term from academic analysis of German Nationalism which has absolutely no place in the first paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saflid (talk • contribs)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Cultural Memory

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2024 and 1 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): B.o.johnson2026 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by B.o.johnson2026 (talk) 16:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]