Talk:Political hip-hop

does the artist have to be very popular?

Akir is pretty propular for his deep involvement and his music also as a political rapper so shouldnt he go here?

If there's going to be a list of artists it should be on a separate page like has been done for the anarchist hip hop sub genre. I agree with the sentiment that letting this article degenerate into a list will destroy it. Give the 2 or three best known in each sub genre and let that be it. I've gone ahead and created a separate page so ya'll can list to your hearts content without bloating this article. it's linked at the bottom of the first section. Anarchocelt (talk)

Phsycho realm & The Visionaries

arent these two political hip hop groups that should be included on this list they should be instead of rappers like chamillionaire

Sources for consideration

A bunch of newspaper articles...
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"Out on the Edge: Political Hip-Hop; Rap and Rant From Souljah, KRS-One & Disposable Heroes" by David Mills in the April 5, 1992 edition of the Washington Post "Time to revive political hip-hop" in the April 8, 2005 edition of the Spokane-Spokesman Review "Political hip-hop a major force in South American youth culture." by Cindy Carcamo in the April 11, 2006 edition of the Orange County Register "Profile: Political hip-hop", aired on the June 17, 2004 edition the NPR program Morning Edition "Arab-American rappers find new voice in political hip-hop music" by the Associated Press, April 3, 2006 "Is Political Hip Hop Dead?" by Oliver Wang in the January 18, 2005 edition of the San Francisco Bay Guardian "Political hip-hop at SOB's" by Diego Graglia in the August 15, 2007 edition of the New York Daily News "This political hip-hop focuses on one issue" by Alicia Wittmeyer in the August 3, 2004 edition of The Daily Review (Spokane, CA) "Hip hop culture's identity crisis" by Gary Pieters in the May 17, 2007 edition of the Toronto Star "Another selective rebellion from Public Enemy" by Michael Corcoran in the September 29, 1991 edition of the Chicago-Sun Times "K-10 connection: Everything s coming up hip-hop between KC and Lawrence" by Jenee Osterheldt in the November 28, 2003 edition of the Kansas City Star "The Unheard Hip Hop" in the August 11, 1999 edition of the Minneapolis City Pages

...some books...
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The Resisting Muse: Popular Music and Social Protest by Ian Peddie What the Music Said: Black Popular Music and Black Public Culture by Mark Anthony Neal To the Break of Dawn: A Freestyle on the Hip Hop Aesthetic by William Jelani Cobb Spectacular Vernaculars: Hip-hop and the Politics of Postmodernism by Russell A. Potter Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African American Experience by Henry Louis Gates and Anthony Appiah

...and a scholarly work.
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"The Black Arts Movement and Hip-Hop" by Marvin J. Gladney. African American Review, Vol. 29, No. 2, Special Issues on The Music (Summer, 1995), pp. 291-301. Indiana State University; ISSN 10624783

May be useful for improving the article... it sure isn't looking too good right now... east.718 at 06:11, July 2, 2008

Redirect

Should Radical hip-hop" redirect here? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:55, 3 May 2014 (UTC).

I changed this article title to "Conscious Rap and Political Hip Hop" but it was reverted ?

"Conscious Rap" is an established term used in Hip Hop Culture. It is a derivative of the Black Consciousness Movement "Political Rap" is like "Political Rock" these describe music but are not actual terms from the music culture itself. For some reason kept reverting my new title "Conscious Rap and Political Hip Hop" back to just 'Political hip hop'. Thus, what happens when you look up "Conscious Rap" in google is 'Political Rap' does come up but many other articles with "Conscious Rap" in the actual article title do come up. So what can happen is people are more often looking for the more popular term "Conscious Rap" and they just skip the Wikipedia and go to these other articles.

Three random books with "Conscious Rap" in the title, just to show it's a recognized term (and a large nomber of articles if you search google):

*Nation Conscious Rap by Joseph D. Eure and James G. Spady | Jan 1, 1991

*Street Conscious Rap by James G. Spady , H. Samy Alim, et al. | Sep 28, 1999

*KENDRICK LAMAR THE KING OF CONSCIOUS RAP: A story of a Compton kid who became a global superstar and the Most Influential Rapper of His Generation (Journey ... US Country and folk musicians series.)| by Paul C. Andrew  | Oct 10, 2023 Central16 (talk) 09:28, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

You added a bunch of musical analysis without citing a source,[1] which is why I warned you against violating the policy of WP:No original research. After that, you added a bunch of song titles without citing a source.[2] And you moved the article to a new title: Conscious Rap and Political Hip Hop. The new title should have been in title case such that only the first word is capitalized. And the contentious page move was performed without discussion, which is why I reverted it.

The book you list above by Paul C. Andrew is self-published and cannot be considered reliable. It's part of a series of books glorifying Trump and American country music, so I would expect it to ignore certain facts and make invalid claims.

Regarding the page move, it is certainly true that this article explains the two topics of political rap and conscious rap. Some sources say they are the same topic, and other sources say they are slightly different, with concsious rap being uplifting, and political rap being angry. If we are to keep the topics together, we need more sources describing how they are the same. If we are to split up the topics, we need more sources saying they are different. Binksternet (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

It's a weak diversionary argument and shows bias to ignore 2 books with "Conscious Rap" in the title and dismiss one by mentioning glorification of Trump and country music, which is totally irrelevant. There are over 181,000 results for the term "Conscious Rap" in google and numerous articles over decades using the term in titles and instead of including the title and correcting the title case you revert, being used as an excuse to exclude "Conscious Rap" and it being derivative of the Black Consciousness movement . The existing article opens " Political hip hop is a subgenre of hip hop music that was developed in the 1980s as a way of turning hip hop into a form of political activism. " That is "original research" It implies there is a Hip Hop authority or think-tank does research and development and decided to "turn" Rap into something. In reality it is rap songs that are political, social critiques sometimes with spiritual/religious elements from Afrocentricity or Black Islamic theology. It was movement of artists of that style not an attempt to turn the whole of Hip Hop music into something. The article starts "Political hip hop is a subgenre of hip hop music " That is "original research" . Rap that is political exists but "political rap" has never been acknowledged by rap artists as an actual genre. "Conscious Rap" has been. "Political rap" is a fair observation but to had instead "Hip Hop", this word "Hip Hop" references a culture, it's attaching a non-culture word to a culture word. "Hip Hop" was a word used by Afrika Bambaataa to include 4 elements: 1) MCing/rapping, 2) DJing/scratching with turntables, 3) breakdancing, and 4) graffiti art. But all these are not prominent in Conscious and Political Rap. Conscious and Political Rap is about lyrical content. There is no requirement for breakdancing or graffiti or even DJing. Hip Hop music is called rap. But despite this the best title for this article is "Conscious rap and political hip hop" . That covers it all. Central16 (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

The Trump book series is self-published by Paul C. Andrew, which is why I dismissed it. God help me if I was to crack it open and read it.

This article already cites Henry Adaso saying "Conscious hip-hop is often confused with its musical cousin, political hip-hop, possibly because they both speak to social turmoil." Adaso is one of the authors saying that conscious rap is different from political rap, with conscious rap having a more uplifting tone. On the other hand is academic author Karl Kovacs who wrote the textbook From Grassroots to Comercialization: Hip Hop and Rap Music in the USA. Kovacs describes the two types of rap as being mostly the same. Kovacs even combines the two in his prose, writing "political/conscious rap". This is much the same viewpoint as Jeffrey O. G. Ogbar who wrote the book Hip-Hop Revolution: The Culture and Politics of Rap. Ogbar does not think conscious rap is necessarily uplifting, or otherwise different than political rap. He treats them the same. So that's the inertia you would have to overcome to get this topic moving in your desired direction. Some solid sourcing that supports you, and some solid sourcing that opposes you. The topic holds its own contradictions. Binksternet (talk) 01:26, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

"Conscious rap" is already a section in the article. Thus it's a no brainer as to the article being called "Conscious rap and Political Hip Hop" as opposed to only "Political Hip Hop". This reflects the article as it has already been structured thus irrelevant to get into semantics on if the terms are synonymous. They are not exactly synonymous but they have a large overlap. Regardless there could be two separate articles but there is only one. It's one article and that's fine but then it only makes sense to include both in the title of this article because both are already covered and are similar, "Conscious Rap" being the more popular term. Central16 (talk) 06:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Example lists

It is better not to make lengthy lists of examples, especially in the lead section which is supposed to be a concise summary of the rest of the article. One or two make the point without bloating the lead. MrOllie (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and each example must be supported by a WP:SECONDARY source naming it as significant to the genre. Even if the entry is moved from the lead section to the article body.

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Lists says "Music genre articles should not contain lists of performers." I extrapolate this instruction to mean that lists of examples should be as concise as possible, tightly focused, and well supported by cites. Binksternet (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Peculiar reversions occurring excluding KRS-One

This is a previous late January version which keeps getting reverted to, the opening paragraph to the whole article:

Political hip hop is a subgenre of hip hop music that was developed in the 1980s as a way of turning hip hop into a form of political activism. Political hip hop generally uses the medium of hip hop music to comment on sociopolitical issues and send political messages to inspire action, create social change, or to convince the listener of a particular worldview. It was inspired partially by politically-focused 1970s artists such as The Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron, as well as the Black Power movement and revolutionary politics of the 1960s and 1970s. Various hip hop artists emerged in the 1980s espousing political messages and providing social and political commentary, with the American group Public Enemy in particular establishing themselves as one of the first predominantly political hip hop groups. The genre has helped to create a new form of social expression for subordinate groups to speak about their exclusions, injustices, and lack of power.

Yet the two major albums putting the Political hip hop on the map in terms of artists doing it as their main style are KRS-One's with his album By All Means Necessary (1988) under his group Boogie Down Productions and It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold us Back by Public Enemy also in 1988. In the Wikipedia entry for KRS-One's By All Means Necessary it says:

"The album (By All Means Necessary ) is widely seen as one of, if not the first, politically conscious efforts in hip-hop. AllMusic critic Steve Huey described the album as a landmark of political hip hop"

KRS-One along with Public Enemy are the primary influences on Political Hip Hop, of which in 1988 and beyond there would be a new trend of artists following in 1989 into the 90s and to an extent ongoing yet KRS-One's name is not even mentioned and Boogie Down Productions only once. I don't understand it. KRS-One was the main artist at the time theorizing about Hip Hop and focusing on social and political commentary for whole albums not only in his music but in public appearances and interviews. His persona was "The Teacher" and he called his music "edutainment". I don't understand why he is getting under-represented on this article. This is Hip Hop 101, it's not even a point of controversy and Chuck D has already acknowledged his influence in interviews. Any book on the history of Hip Hop will says this. KRS One's By All Means Necessary is widely seen as one of, if not the first, politically conscious efforts in hip-hop > Wikipedia And Grandmaster Flash's song the Message of 1982 is duly noted in the Origins and development sections of a conscious rap song before artists were known for their primary style and most songs being conscious or political. KRS and Chuck D paved the waved for this any music critic or Golden era Hip Hop artist will attest to this

Central16 (talk) 06:34, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Removed the section Indian Political Hop Hop

@MrOllie You removed the whole section of Indian Political Hip Hop and the reason you gave was ‘Promotion’. There is nothing in which I wrote is promotion, this page is about Political Hip Hop and I wrote information according to that and gave examples of songs that related to this topic. Why was it removed? 86.24.232.5 (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I removed it because 100% was promoting the work of one artist. Your additions were completely unsourced and simply expressed your own opinions, something which isn't done on Wikipedia. See our policies on this at WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. MrOllie (talk) 21:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie How can they be my own opinions when that is what the songs Entail? These songs are widely available on major streaming platforms like Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube, where their lyrics and themes have been analyzed and discussed in various articles, fan forums, and news outlets. If you need proof I can reply with numerous links of articles ✌️ 86.24.232.5 (talk) 21:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

If you have not cited any sources what else could they be but your own impressions? That isn't how Wikipedia is written. We need a reliable source to make the point which we would then cite. Let us see those sources - but unless they are very strong, covering the works of a single artist is probably not going to be something for this particular article. You should likely add them to the artist's biography instead. MrOllie (talk) 21:53, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Making the same unsourced edit over and over will not work, you've got to make some effort to comply with Wikipedia's policies here. MrOllie (talk) 21:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie Do look at following:

Article on Baaznews.org

[3]https://www.baaznews.org/p/sidhu-moosewala-syl-understanding

Reddit Forum

[4]https://www.reddit.com/r/Sikh/comments/vizhw3/syl_sidhu_moosewalas_new_song_discusses_social/?rdt=62143

Article by Independet.co.uk

[5]https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/sidhu-moose-wala-syl-youtube-government-complain-b2110091.html

Article on BBC.co.uk

[6]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-61973643

You need any more proof? 86.24.232.5 (talk) 22:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie Secondly, you said I’m “covering the works of a single Artist”. Yes because that is the only Artist I know from India that has made political hip-hop music and I gave that information. Isn’t that the whole point of Wikipedia? Now if someone else knows another artist from India, they can undoubtedly write about them and contribute to the topic but you have removed the whole section. If there is a Section on Indian political hip-hop then more like-minded individuals are more likely to contribute. 86.24.232.5 (talk) 22:31, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I see two reliable sources: the one from BBC and the one from The Independent. These two sources can be cited per WP:CITE to say that Sidhu Moose Wala was a political rapper. The other sources are no good per WP:USERG. Reddit is completely unusable, and baaznews.org is a TypePad blog. Binksternet (talk) 01:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Hip-hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)