Talk:Pitkern

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 September 2021 and 31 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Smkloos.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alexandracross.

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Comments

Is this still a stub? --Taejo 21:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Looks very much like one. No information on usage, grammar, syntax... It only looks bigger because of the table of examples. Grutness...wha? 07:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No! It's at least a start, possibly a C!Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 08:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pitkern

Google finds about 30,900 English pages for Pitkern but only 784 English pages for Pitcairnese. Is there any objection to moving this page to Pitkern language? Jonathunder 23:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

why not simply Pitkern? Currently it's a redirect, but if you found a friendly admin (like me, for instance) then it could easily be deleted to make way for the article. Grutness...wha? 00:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Following Grutness, I moved the page to Pitkern, but if anyone objects, we can discuss it. Jonathunder 03:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(slaps head) I'd forgotten you're an admin. Apologies! :) Grutness...wha? 04:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who made the language up

I know that some may debate that language isnt created but evolved, but who made up a language that would end up being used by only a 100 people who ended up knowing english. Why would they make up another language, it's like me creating a group just to make up a new language. It seems a bit strange to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.103.158.84 (talk) 19:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? No-one made the language up. It developed naturally from the English being used by sailors at the time of the mutiny. That's why it has so many elements from Georgie and West Country English - areas that a lot of the sailors would have come from. Those were the basic elements of speech that the mutineers who settled Pitcairn had, and the language has evolved naturally since then. As with 99% of other languages, there's no debate at all that it evolved. The only languages that people "make up" are artificial ones like Esperanto. Grutness...wha? 00:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Roman Gauls and Iberians must have been very strange indeed in their behaviour (making up Spanish, French and Portuguese from Latin!) 92.235.178.44 (talk) 14:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Phrases in Pitkern

I've added three phrases to the table - "I'm going swimming", "Come on all you kids" and "Lebbe". My wife grew up on Pitcairn as a kid and passed these gems on to me. A comment on "Where are you going?" - given as "About ye gwen?". I'm told that was older Pitkern - by the 1960s, this had evolved into "By ye gwen?". I haven't edited this - would like to see come confirmation - also whether historic or current usage is to be illustrated. Another apparent error: "Ye like-a sum whettles?" The word should be "weckle" - "Ye like-a sum weckle?". That one should be corrected. Ptilinopus (talk) 05:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons for being endangered/teaching the language to younger generations

I don't want to unilaterally edit this without some discussion here first, as there are a number of issues involved with the claim that (essentially) "Pitkern is endangered because it's not being taught, but there have been attempts to standardise it". These issues are:

Number of speakers: If we take Pitkern and Norfuk as being the same language (I don't have access to the Mühlhäusler text cited, so I can't see what he says, but happy to defer to whatever he does say as he's very smart!), I'd be surprised if we're looking at a number of speakers under 630 these days. I do have another Mühlhäusler text or two lying about somewhere in what I keep claiming to be a well-organised collection of books, and my recollection is that he quotes more than that for Norfuk speakers alone, but we'll leave that for now.
Language not being taught to the young: False. At least, false as long as we take the two as the same. Norfolk Island Central School teaches the language to every student in a variety of ways, including a sort of "language camp". Pitkern I can't be so sure about, but there is a book that Meralda Warren has written along with students on the island called Mi base side orn Pitkern ("My Favourite Place on Pitcairn"), which suggests that the school-aged kids there are learning the language whether in or out of school.
Not being used in the typical household: Also not so, again as far as Norfuk is concerned. Mühlhäusler indicates that there are even families where the kids are teaching the parents, as well as plenty of households on Norfolk where communication is in the local language. He points out that this sort of thing happens frequently as a response to outside pressures - and the island is currently being pressured from outside. Again, I can't be sure about Pitkern, but it would seem unusual for an island largely isolated from the rest of the world and with its own indigenous language not to be using it almost exclusively, only switching to English when cruise ships turn up.
Standardisation of spelling and grammar: In relation to Norfuk, yes. In relation to Pitkern, not so sure. I've spoken (and I know the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data", of course) with Norfolkers who've visited relatives on Pitcairn and been surprised at how their language differs from that of their relatives. Mühlhäusler has also critiqued the "standard" orthographies and pointed out instances where they're neither helpful nor used.

I've marked the paragraph in question as "dubious" for the moment, since I'm pretty sure there's a sensible form of words we can use here. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:28, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some updates, now that I've had most of a day to think about it:

Per his report on the matter, pp94-5, Mühlhäusler argues that Norfuk and Pitkern are separate languages. "Those who call Norf'k a dialect signal that its speakers are politically powerless", for example. For that reason, I've removed the mention of Norfuk as a "dialect" in the infobox.
Words revolving around food, shelter etc: I see what this phrasing means, but I'm not convinced it makes a lot of sense. Any language will have words "revolving around" the distinctive area that it occupies (even a dialect will - look at the distinctive words used in US English for rock formations in deserts versus the ones I would use as an Australian) or the aspects of its culture that make it distinctive. I've removed it for now, but I'm sure there's a form of words which will work to have it re-included, since the point is valid (a Pitkern speaker talking about an "umn" isn't going to mean what someone living in the suburbs of a large city means by "oven", for example).
Language not being taught: As mentioned above, this just isn't the case, so I've removed it.
Efforts to standardise: I've tried to separate out the standardisation (which should be with the "s" in the suffix, per MOS, I'll change that shortly) on Norfolk Island and of Norfuk versus whatever standardisation there may have been on Pitcairn and of Pitkern. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:10, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Norfuk / Pitkern Wikipedia

Hello,

I suspect that this talk page might be one of the places to get more attention than the Wikipedia itself, but note that I've made a proposal to close Pitkern Wikipedia at meta:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Pitkern & Norfuk Wikipedia 3. If anyone has any opinions or knowledge on the topic, especially for people who speak the language who are interested in free content, input is appreciated. SnowFire (talk) 01:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]