Talk:Pietro Mascagni/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Pietro Mascagni. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Wikipedians in California

Has anyone ever listened to the program Friday Night at the Opera (aired in Sacramento from the KXPR studio, hosted by Sean Bianco)? The Intermezzo from his Cavaleria Rusticana is the theme song. —CliffHarris (-T|C-) 03:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Mascagni and Fascism

I removed text about Mascagni and Fascism. While Mascagni did adhere to the Fascist party (as did Puccini, Giordano, and countless others), recent studies have nuanced his involvement. Read Alan Mallach's biography for a nuanced treatment of the subject. There are absolutely unsubstanciated myths out there, including that of Nerone being in support of Mussolini (Nerone was a 40-year old project, and paints nerone as a weak character). Talking about Mascagni and Fascism may be necessary, but must be done in a responsible way and based on facts, not myths. Ebruchez 08:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

A nuanced view of whether Nerone supported Mussolini or not is fine. Mascagni was a supporter of fascism, which I believe is relevant to his biography, and I am more concerned with that being there than an analysis of Nerone.

When something is challenged, Wikipedia encourages citation, so I shall cite:

"That Mascagni allied himself with fascism, like Giordano and Puccini to a lesser degree, is interesting but not unexpected"

-- Opera and the Culture of Fascism by Jeremy Tambling

I have a number of other sources with regards to this. But you admit he adhered to the Fascist party anyhow. I am adding this to his biography. Ruy Lopez 02:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Ruy, the problem I have is not with accepting that Mascagni adhered to the Fascist party. My problem is that this biography has currently two lines, and that mentioning this at this point makes it sound like his participation to the Fascist party was the second important thing in this life after the writing of Cavalleria Rusticana, which is absolutely preposterous. And that quote you cite above has a fair amount of bias: "to a lesser degree" yes, but because Puccini died in 1924 so he could obviously not continue his involvement! And it is not "interesting", because pretty much any high-profile Italian artist of the time who wanted to have a career had to join the party. It seems to me that you have a particular will to depict Mascagni in a negative way by emphasizing this point alone. Ebruchez 08:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so I solved the problem by adding the longer biography that I wrote a long time ago for Mascagni.org, mainly based on "Pietro Mascagni - L'avventuroso dell'opera". It does mention that Mascagni adhered to the Fascist party in 1932. Ebruchez 08:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no difficulty with the idea that Mascagni may have joined the Fascist party for opportunistic or other reasons. Others had to kowtow to Mussolini and even Adolph Hitler in order to keep their jobs such as Richard Strauss in Germany who had a Jewish daughter-in-law.

It might help, though, to indicate that Hitler apparently applied pressure to change Rabbi David in "l'Amico Fritz" (Mascagni's early "Jewish" opera) to a physician.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:TmxO6oSca6MJ:www.mercuryoperarochester.org/programs/fritz.pdf+l%27amico+fritz+hitler&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Ed (talk) 14:59, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have reviewed an essay on Mascagni and Mussolini [1] and another citation, and I think this article minimizes his collaboration with the regime. He may have done so without fascist fervor, he may have done so for his personal gain, but "Mascagni began to accept honors, offices, and appointments from the regime, to compose and conduct music for official functions, and to appear on the podium in the fascist black shirt." I sense this is being white-washed from the article. While some might view this as merely "required attendance" to maintain his career, we must remember that many others did not collaborate and paid a great price. Individuals can always say no; Mascagni said yes to fascism and this is merely recorded here by:

"He joined the PNF (Fascist party), following the example of many contemporary musicians, including Giordano."

For one, like Giordano, while he joined the party; I doubt it was done by "following his example", Mascagni would likely have joined, for his own selfish reasons, even if Giordano had not. I would like to add the sentence that states: "Mascagni began to accept honors, offices, and appointments from the regime, to compose and conduct music for official functions, and to appear on the podium in the fascist black shirt."Rococo1700 (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Timeline biography

Surely this isn't standard? It should be changed to straight text like the rest of the Wikipedia biographies -- I've tagged it as such for now. --Gafaddict 01:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm less concerned with whether it's "standard" than whether it's confusing in it's present state. When I saw the page with information about Puccini's "Turandot", for example, I kept wondering what it had to do with Mascagni. The answer is "nothing".

In my opinion either remove these references or retitle the biography section "Timelines" or "Biography and Timelines". Ed (talk) 14:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Premiere of Isabeau

It seems that the theater where premiere of Isabeau took place is sometimes mentioned as the "Colon", sometimes as the "Coliseo". I asked renowned Mascagni expert Roger Flury about this, and here is what he said (reproduced with this authorization):

I checked in Alan Mallach's Mascagni biography and Grove Opera; both give the Coliseo (as do I). I checked also a book on the T. Solis, Montevideo, where Isabeau was presented afterwards, and it mentions the premiere of Isabeau at the Coliseo.
A couple of sources give the T. Colon (Piper's Encyclopaedia and the Mellon Opera Reference series), but I suspect they copied each other!
The T. Colon website does not list Mascagni among the famous composers who conducted their own works in that theatre - and I'm sure they would have if PM had conducted the premiere of Isabeau in that house! The Sonzogno chronology firmly places the premiere at the Coliseo (and they ought to know!). So, I think the Coliseo is correct - until someone can produce a programme proving otherwise!

So for now I am reverting to Colon.

Ebruchez (talk) 02:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Make sure you check your sources before adding new operas

From time to time, some funny opera names appear on this page, most recently: Zilia, Scampolo, and I Bianchi ed i Neri. There is no indication that Mascagni ever composed those operas. None of the serious sources I have looked at, or the Mascagni letters, talk about them. So please discuss new additions here with references to serious sources before adding any of those back.

Ebruchez (talk) 15:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually he did compose all of those operas. See here: [2]. Also see this article from Opera News here which mentions I Bianchi ed i Neri as his last opera. The reason why they are not on many lists is because they were either never performed or there is little or no information available about them. I believe Pietro Mascagni and His Operas by Alan Mallach also mentions them, although it has been some years sense I have read it so I could be mistaken on that point. Regardless, the Stanford source is excellent and I have never found an error in it before and I doubt Opera News is likely to make the same error either. Nrswanson (talk) 15:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Your Stanford page, again, means zero. That Opera News article is in error. These operas were not only never performed, but never composed. I contacted Roger Flury, estimated librarian who wrote the book "Pietro Mascagni and his Operas", for his input about this. He and Alan Mallach represent the state of the art of the modern research on Pietro Mascagni. I am happy to put you in touch with them if you have interest. The bottom line: the titles of the three operas mentioned, Zilia, Scampolo, and I Bianchi e i Neri, are in fact found in literature about Mascagni. Mascagni, as a teenager, wrote sketches for Zilia. The opera was never completed, and some music may have ended up into Guglielmo Ratcliff, but we don't know that for a fact. Scampolo was mentioned in a contract with Sonzono, but was never composed. I Bianchi e i Neri was mentioned in a letter, but was never composed.

It would be ok to mention these three titles as projects that Mascagni contemplated during his life (you will find that there were more such projects). However, they don't belong in the list of works produced by the composer.

Now if somebody is able to point to a serious reference (letter) showing that any of those was more than a project, then that certainly will be an exciting discovery worth mentioning. But the fact remains that at the moment, we cannot consider any of these three operas as being works by Pietro Mascagni.Ebruchez (talk) 17:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for going to all that trouble. It would be good to mention them on the page as unfinished/uncompleted projects just so that people like me don't wonder about it. Thanks.Nrswanson (talk) 17:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, and for your diligent search for references. I have just done that. I have created a new sections in the list of works for projects that Mascagni contemplated but never actually completed. I believe that's the right place for Zilia, Scampolo, and I Bianchi e i Neri. I also believe that in order for those to be promoted to the level of actual works created by Mascagni, very strong references are needed, as the world's top Mascagni experts like Flury and Mallach do not recognize them as such.Ebruchez (talk) 18:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

POV statement should be removed

"It is certainly a better vehicle for a popular lyric soprano."

This statement is bad for two reasons: 1. It isn't NPOV. 2. It's unsourced.

Should it be removed? I see why not, but I'd like a second opinion.--134.129.9.146 (talk) 18:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I've removed it. Both your points are correct + it's nonsense. I haven't looked at this article for a long time. It's quite a mess. The whole lead needs a liberal dose of the "red pencil" - it's completely unencyclopedic and unreferenced opinion. The "biography" is simply a choppy glorified timeline. All improvements welcome! Voceditenore (talk) 19:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Feels like the entire second paragraph of the intro is opinion but as I'm unaware of the consensus among actual musical critics, I don't feel it is my place to edit it. Also seems that the dates are just copied from the English source listed at bottom. Not sure if that's acceptable or not(sorry guys, never really done a real edit or I'd help out!) Alex (talk) 21:53, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The main problem with the article is the almost complete lack of inline citations from reliable sources. I see that User:Ebruchez (User talk:Ebruchez) contributed quite a lot of the content, but he isn't very active on WP these days. Myself, I don't think that the second para is too bad - it may have been originally intended to be part of the lead. On the other hand, I'm not a great Mascagni fan, and other articles that I'm working on take priority. --GuillaumeTell 17:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Mascagni's "Sinfonia in Fa (1880)" and other early works, and the Pellegrini/Vianesi geneaology

About Pietro Mascagni's early work "Prima Sinfonia in Fa Maggiore - Riduzione per pianoforte a 4 mani" and other Mascagni's early works, one can visit www.andreapellegrini.it/mascagnitesto.htm , unfortunately in italian, to be traslated in English soon. Other infos about productions and compositions of the young Pietro Mascagni, and about musicians and people involved, are shown on the same site. The young Pietro Mascagni often played and collaborated with various members of the Pellegrini / Vianesi family from Tuscany: the Soprano Enrichetta Pellegrini, the multi-instrumentalist Giulio Pellegrini, the violinist Adolfo Pellegrini and others. Many of his early compositions are dedicated to them: "Prima Sinfonia in Fa maggiore, 1880, to Giulio Pellegrini"; the "Messa" ("Mass") first played "mercé le cure dell’egregio organista signor Giulio Pellegrini" (1882); another "Messa" (1883) whose first perfomance was managed by Giulio Pellegrini; the Romanza per Tenore e orchestra "Il Re a Napoli", 1884, "reduced for mister Giulio Pellegrini"; the "Pater Noster" "per soprano e accompagnamento di quintetto a corda" ("for Soprano and string quinitet"), 1880, dedicated "alla gentilissima signorina Enrichetta Pellegrini". Pietro Mascagni also presented some manuscripts to the Pellegrini family members. Today they own the 100 pages original manuscript of "Prima Sinfonia in Fa, riduzione per pianoforte a 4 mani (1880)", dedicated to Giulio Pellegrini, and the manuscript of an "Alleluja per due voci e organo". The Pellegrini / Vianesi genealogy is linked with music since 1800. The most notable member of this old family is Augusto Vianesi, also linked to Mascagni, being a famous conductor. He conducted the american premiere of Cavalleria Rusticana (N.Y. Metropolitan, 1891) and worked with Rossini and others all around the world. See: Amadeus - Opera House, musicsack.com, ClassicaOnLine, Internet Archive USA, DEUMM UTET 1988, Garzantina 2005, Schmidl Sonzogno etc. The younger members of this family, still linked with music since 200 years, are today rock and jazz musicians (Francesco Pellegrini, Andrea Pellegrini, Giovanni "Nino" Pellegrini, Chiara Pellegrini) and conservatory teachers (Paola Pellegrini). They live in Livorno, Toscana. INFO: andrea_pellegrini@libero.it . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.65.250.219 (talk) 11:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Unreferenced trivia removal

The Intermezzo from Mascagni's opera Cavalleria rusticana has been used in innumerable films, animes, tv shows, commercials, pop music arrangements etc. The addition of a "Cultural references" section in this article (as had been the case with the Cavalleria rusticana article) was starting to attract mentions of every use, all of them unreferenced, the majority of them trivial. So much so that there is no indication in the articles for some of the "cultural references" that the music was even used, let alone had any particular significance. These unencyclopedic and unverified factoids add nothing to the reader's understanding of the composer and his work. I have pruned the section to two highly notable films, Raging Bull and The Godfather Part III, where music from Cavalleria Rusticana and other Mascagni works plays a significant role in the screenplay and have referenced them to reliable secondary sources which actually discuss the issue in detail. In future, I propose to remove any additions to that section, unless they are accompanied by similar quality references which verify that the music plays a significant role in the film and why. A link to IMDb (or other database) which merely lists a piece of Mascagni's music in the sound track is not enough. Voceditenore (talk) 07:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Pietro Mascagni/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==Comments by Voceditenore== This article doesn't even approach C status let alone B. I've rated it as "Start". It's written as a confusing and incoherent timeline largely cribbed from www.mascagni.org [3]. The referencing is very poor with virtually no inline citations, except for a trivial reference relating to "miraculous" rosary beads that allegedly cured his niece. The intro has unreferenced POV: "the steely, Veristic power of Il piccolo Marat, the overripe postromanticism of the lush Parisina — demonstrate a versatility that surpasses even that of Puccini" and speculation: ("If he never repeated the international success of Cavalleria, it was probably because Mascagni refused to copy himself." The article needs a complete overhaul. Mascagni deserves better than this. Voceditenore (talk) 12:17, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 12:17, 5 May 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 03:01, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Pietro Mascagni. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)