Talk:Persian-speakers of Iran

This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2009. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Persian-speaking people is the subject, rather than Persian people who are speaking.--Wetman (talk) 04:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Khomeini

Why is Khomeini in that picture? If you're going to include someone like that in there, as representative of the Persian people, you should also include Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. Otherwise, delete it. It's POV and controversial. IranianGuy (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear IranianGuy, it is not about neutrality. Khomeini is Iranian anyway.--Raayen (talk) 13:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" Didn't Khomeini have roots in India? "--خرمدین۸۹ (talk) 19:32, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are right about controversy anyway, so I will change it with Amir kabir. By the way, after the late cock-and-bull about ethnic this and ethnic that, Pahlavis are not of Persian-speaking descent.--Raayen (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my view its better to include Mohammadreza Pahlavi than replacing Khomeini with Amirkabir. Besides this, Khomeini was the greatest of all those whose pictures are placed in that Image. The one who from the land of Kashmir in India to Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon and Palestine, Love him! With no doubt he was Iranian. In my view he was among the first 10 people who changed the path of history the most! Iranian revolution which formed under his leadership, changed the world's destiny. I'm not going to details, but for a leader who had the support of 98.2% of the nation, there must be no doubt about neutrality or controversiality. --Wayiran (talk) 17:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Pahlavis are not of Persian-speaking descent"? According to this article, "Persian-speakers" are not an ethnic group, so I'm not sure what you mean. Anyway, they all spoke Persian as their mother tongue, including Reza Shah. I have no idea about their ancestors, but if we want to get technical, most Iranians today probably aren't of "Persian-speaking" descent; but again, I disagree with making it an ethnic issue since "Persian" is more a cultural and linguistic identity. IranianGuy (talk) 06:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. I will change the image soon. But please others don't object, say like, communists doesn't have a representative in there! Those are just the photos of some Iranians.--Raayen (talk) 13:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pahlevis were of mixed mazandarani and azeri descent. persian speakers of iran is indeed an ethnic category. That of persian people was not an ethnic category. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only Azeri part of the Pahlavi family was Mohammad Reza Shah's wife, Farah Pahlavi. As far as I know, Reza Shah and his wife did not have any Azeri lineage. Anyway, "Persian-speaker" cannot be considered an ethnic category because it includes people who are not in any way "ethnic" Persian, like Turkic-speakers (a good percentage of whom are of Persian lineage, I'm sure), Kurds, and others who are culturally and linguistically assimilated into the Persian identity. IranianGuy (talk) 01:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tadj ol-Molouk, the mother of Mohamad Reza Shah was Azeri, so Mohamad Reza Shah was at least half Azeri too. It is also possible that Reza Shah's father also had some Azeri roots. As I said Persianspeaker here is an ethnic category. It doesnt mean any one who speak Persian, but means those natives of Iran, who traditionally speak a Persian dialect in their region.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Khomeini: Khomeini's picture should absolutely be included in this article. He was of Persian-speaking background and whether anyone likes it or not, Khomeini is one of the most important and influential figures in modern Iranian history and his influence still dominates in Iran today. There is also no doubt that Khomeini is among the most well known and most recognizble Persian-Iranians in the World.

It seems everybody has stopped. I tried hard to include people with different ideas/jobs/situations/... on the image. I even contacted groups to be kind and present images of their great people to Wikimedia, so that the arisen neutrality issue be resolved, but to no avail. Finding images, considering copyright problems is hard. At last, in regard to the above views, the new image was prepared. It was good to have a famous woman in veil there, but I couldn't find due to the same reasons.--Raayen (talk) 23:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With the same argument, Hilter should also be included in Wikip page or German people, he was also an influential figure in 20th century, much more than Khomeini was. Khomeini at times emphasized on being a Muslim rather than being Persian or Iranian, although he spoke Farsi. He is not a representative of Persian culture, language or ethnic qualities, although he is a member of them.

To Kasperone about the numbers in Asian countries

Dear Kaseprone it is true that the source says there are 50,000 Iranians in japan, Korea and Philipines. But I think divinding the number in three is not a good idea. Because there are large numbers of Iranians in the first two (notably in Japan) while there are only very few of them in the Philipines.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

agreed. I made the following changes to my previous edit. Feel free to made suggestions.

.--kasperone (talk) 10:01, November 26 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

Raayen has produced a great collage of photos for the infobox. However, the infobox title and the population numbers in the infobox worry me: the article is entitled Persian-speakers of Iran, while the infobox title is Persian speaking people (without Iran!). This is inconsistent and confusing. Another potential cause for confusion are the population numbers in the infobox: what do they actually represent? Persian-speakers of Iran or Persian speakers the world over? Someone knowledgeable should try to deal with these issues. --Zlerman (talk) 01:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there are limiting rules about the size (now it is 320) or number of images (now 15), please change them or inform me to do it (8 images). The group name was changed as per your correction. I am not sure about your last concern, but I think "Persian-speakers of Iran" means "Persian-speakers of Iran who live in the world" or "Iranian Persian-speakers who live in the world". And I have no information about population numbers and haven't edited them up to now.--Raayen (talk) 00:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Farshad: I also think the statistical information represented in the box can not be trusted, because most of their references are out of date. For example the population of Persian speakers in Oman which was calculated 17 years ago, can not be unchanged today. secondly,is it true that just 33000 Persian speakers leave in Tajikistan? I thought this number should be about 7 million people! —Preceding undated comment added 04:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC).

(a) If you have up-to-date numbers from verifiable sources, please insert them. Otherwise, we stay with the best available sources, even if outdated. (b) The article and the infobox are about "Persian-speakers of Iran". In Tajikistan there are indeed 6-7 million Persian speakers, but they are not "Persian-speakers of Iran": they are called Tajiks. --Zlerman (talk) 05:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to "Persians of Iran"

Persian is already a linguistic group, so saying "Persian-speakers of Iran" is the same as saying "Persians of Iran" only the latter is a less redundant title. Do you agree? 174.18.2.207 (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's better to remain this way. Also, "Persians" should be disambiguation page (not redirected to "Persian people").Alefbe (talk) 16:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your suggestion. The name "Persians of Iran" is more appropriate. I suggest having a vote on this matter. I for one think the current name "Persian speakers of Iran" makes no sense. --Ddd0dd (talk) 01:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Move

Should the article be renamed as "Persians of Iran"? --Ddd0dd (talk) 15:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Oppose The current title is better and less ambiguous. Alefbe (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, while the title may be more specific, it's actually a bit inaccurate. The article covers, for example, mute Persians of Iran, but they are not "Persian-speakers of Iran"; they are just "Persians of Iran". 174.18.8.101 (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Most of Iranians are and have historically been Persians, but not all of them are native speakers of the modern Iranian dialect commonly known as Modern Persian. So we need an article for those Persians who happen to speak what is nowadays known as modern Persians i.e. Persian-speakers; and one in its historic concept i.e. Persians which can well be merged into Iranian peoples. Ellipi (talk) 17:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "Persians of Iran" have different meanings. Somewhere referring to all people of Iran, then we should redirect or make a dismabig with "Demography of Iran". Sometimes applied to ancient Persians (in Persis) comparing to other non-Persian parts like Media or Parthia (which now includes Persian-speaker inhabitants too). Many Persian-speakers of Iran have parents from two or one other ethnicity or their ancestors trace to other ethnicities. We cannot label them "Persian" by night and there are many. And, yes, it is also used for an ethnic group that speaks Persian. I think the current title is less confusing and more correct.-Raayen (talk) 01:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support While most Persian-Iranians are ethnically the same, "Persian" is still considered a linguistic group. People descended from Persian-speaking groups, are "Persians". I would also like to add, that by the same logic of the people who oppose the move, "Persian people" should be moved to "Persian-speaking people". 174.18.8.101 (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Persian speakers of Iran doesnt ring a bell! Persians in Iran are catagorized as an ethnic group, i'm surprised with the name of this article!--Boghzo (talk) 03:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]