Talk:Pelican (1793 ship)

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Requested move 11 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. after 11 days, there is no agreement to move the article to any of the suggested titles. Cúchullain ^t/c 13:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pelican (privateer) → Pelican (French Revolutionary War privateer) – WP:PRECISE multiple privateers called Pelican, ambiguous disambiguation should not be used, so this should redirect to Pelican (disambiguation)#Ships -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 06:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a British ship, and none of the other ships listed on the dab page appear to be privateers. Station1 (talk) 06:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 and 65.94.169.56: Queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The suggested name implied to me, when I first looked at it, that it described a French privateer, from the Revolutionary War, while the article actually describes a privateer from the French Revolution. For other ships, the year built is part of the ambiguator. Sadly, the article doesn't currently state when the vessel was launched, when it was turned into a privateer, or when it sank. Geo Swan (talk) 08:56, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose we can use Pelican (sank 1793) in keeping with the launch years of other ships, this would be the year of loss. -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 04:25, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - According to the Gomer Williams ref, it sounds like it was launched the same day it sank. Station1 (talk) 06:01, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - That would seem to solve GeoSwan's indicated problem, and lead the way to consistency with other ship articles. Pelican (1793) -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 05:33, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This ship fought in the French Revolutionary Wars, per the introductory sentence, thus the disambiguator. It doesn't matter if it is British or Brazilian. Francis Drake ran a privateer, and that ship is listed at Pelican (disambiguation) which is an English ship, so little distinction with a British ship. What else would "French Revolutionary War" mean, unless you happen think there's only been one Revolutionary War (disambiguation). If it was to be one indicating nationality of the ship, it'd be Pelican (French Revolutionary Wars British privateer) -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 21:45, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Now I understand the motivation for the name change, I think. The Golden Hind can be considered a privateer, and its original name was Pelican, but I don't think many people will be looking for it under that name, and probably even fewer know it as a privateer. But just in case, we can put a {{distinguish}} hatnote on this article to avoid any possible confusion, rather than change the name. In any case, the ship didn't actually participate in the French Revolution, or as a privateer for that matter. Apparently it didn't have a chance to do much at all before it sank. Station1 (talk) 22:20, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It was meant to fight in the French Revolution, so "fought". If we make that distinction, then this cannot be called a "prviateer" because it sank before taking action, so the disambiguator is wrong in that case as well. As this ship sank before doing anything significant, it cannot be held to be a good choice for the "privateer" disambiguator, and that instead we should redirect this title to Francis Drake's ship instead with a hatnote back to this article. (or just point it to the disambiguation page) -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 04:07, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if a privateer must have seen action or only been intended to, but sources call this Pelican a privateer, so I think the current name is ok, but I have no strong objection to Pelican (1793) either. If the title is changed, though, the current title should redirect to the dab page. Station1 (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 26 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Redirect at Pelican (privateer) still points here for now. (non-admin closure) —Guan aco 04:32, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pelican (privateer) → Pelican (1793) – Per the prior discussion, the agreed upon name to use is Pelican (1793), and the current title of Pelican (privateer) will redirect to the disambiguation page Pelican (disambiguation)#Ships -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 04:22, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support per the prior discussion. I am the nominator. -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 04:23, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Both participants (myself and Station 1) involved in the extended discussion selecting an alternate name agreed that "Pelican (1793)" is acceptable. The other participant (Geo Swan) who did not participate in the extended discussion, mentioned that the launch date is the usual disambiguator to use, which the proposed title "Pelican (1793)" uses. -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 04:28, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What are your views on "Pelican (1793 ship)"? The additional qualifier might help the reader in identifying if this is the article they're looking for. There are also multiple precedents - for example Charlotte (1784 ship), Friendship (1793 ship) or Golden Grove (1780 ship). The ship articles with just a year as a suffix tend to be naval vessels for which its assumed that the reader is already aware that they are ship pages (for example HMS Levant (1758), USS Chesapeake (1799), HMS Speedy (1782). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euryalus (talk • contribs) 05:53, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I am fine with that Pelican (1793 ship) -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 06:24, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- That's ok with me too, or as proposed, or leaving the current title. Station1 (talk) 17:27, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.