Talk:Painted redstart

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Requested move 7 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Painted redstart. It has been demonstrated that "redstart" satisfies WP:COMMONNAME by a significant margin. While the IOC and IUCN prefer "whitestart" , their weight is still not sufficient to tip the balance over. No such user (talk) 12:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Painted whitestart → Painted redstart – "redstart" is used far, far more commonly for this species than "whitestart". Of the sources used on this page, the only one to use "whitestart" is from the IUCN, a European-based organisation. On Google Scholar, a search finds 7 results for "painted whitestart" since 2017, all of which are barely relevant. "Painted redstart" gives 74 results, of which the first 4 include the name in the title. I know Google searches can be misleading, but a search for "painted whitestart" gives very few useful results - just Wikipedia, and BirdLife, another European-based organisation (plus eBird which does not use it as the primary name). The first page results also includes a rejected proposal to change the name of species in this genus to "whitestart", and random links to Pinterest and a Youtube video. Meanwhile a search for "painted redstart" returns all the most relevant sources for North American birds and you don't really start finding junk until the third page of results. I have 11 books on the shelf next to me that mention species in this genus, mostly field guides for various areas. 9 use "redstart" exclusively, 1 uses "redstart" but mentions "whitestart", and only one uses "whitestart" primarily, but mentions that "redstart" is commonly used in N America. I think probably this whole genus should be at "redstart" pages, but that's a little less clear when they occur almost exclusively in Spanish-speaking areas. But this species has quite an extensive range into English-speaking areas and it seems pretty clear that "redstart" is way more common and using "whitestart" violates WP:CommonName. Somatochlora (talk) 18:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I am convinced by google NGRAM (where Whitestart does not appear at all) and even more so by google-scholar search results (I compared "Myioborus pictus" redstart vs. "Myioborus pictus" whitestart) that Painted redstart is by far the common name here.--Eostrix (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 14:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC) sock of Icewhiz[reply]
Keep. The IOC use Painted Whitestart and is the source used for bird names by the project, although this policy could be questioned given WP:CommonName. With the IUCN/Birdlife also using whitestart and H&M4 and Bird of the World both using redstart, the four major checklists are split on the issue. — Jts1882 | talk 14:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The guidelines from the Wikiproject, as far as I can tell, are "The IOC names have been used in the vast majority of Wikipedia articles (including their titles), in lower case except where parts of the name refer to a proper noun (e.g. New Zealand scaup). Wikipedia bird article titles may diverge from the IOC list when the most common name in reliable sources is different from the IOC name." This seems to be totally compatible with moving the page? In any case, Wikpedia policies (and I believe the [Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(fauna)|naming conventions]?) override project guidelines, and make it very clear that if a name is unambiguous and overwhelmingly more common we must use it. This is a case where the IOC (and others) are trying to change common usage, but it is not Wikipedia's job to go along with that until and unless that actually succeeds.Somatochlora (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll also note the string of successful moves of NZ birds to non-IOC names based on usage considerations, that aren't nearly as overwhelmingly one-sided than this example: Talk:Kakapo#Requested_move_7_October_2021 Somatochlora (talk) 15:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.