Talk:Ozero

Tag

As to the POV tag, could you please explain me where in the article there is any point of view and judgments at all? Colchicum 10:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

View log says: "put NPOV tag on per discussion". But there is no discussion on this sibject. So, I remove the tag. Biophys 20:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

"Following a life-threatening fire at his dacha in August 1996, Vladimir Putin converted to the Russian Orthodox Church." Is this related to Ozero somehow? Other than the fact that he is a member?--75.134.55.71 (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Nemtsov's interview

I removed his quote per WP:BLP. Its tone is non-neutral, and actual (although rather innocent: somebody got rich; so what?) facts about mentioned persons require sourcing from independent, non-biased sources. -M.Altenmann >t 04:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Nemtsov

During the 2011 rise of the anti-Putin protests, Boris Nemtsov, former deputy prime minister of Russia and later co-chair of RPR-PARNAS oppositional political party, suggested in an interview that only those in Ozero really support Putin any more: "Everyone is unhappy with Putin, save perhaps his closest friends, members of the so-called Ozero dacha cooperative [...] In only a few years these fellows turned from medium-sized entrepreneurs into dollar billionaires. For example, the Kovalchuk brothers have seized power over Gazprom; the KGB veteran Gennady Timchenko is now a trader who controls 40 percent of all crude oil exports; Putin's former sambo coaches, the Rotenberg brothers, continue to get lucrative contracts, and there are a few more people like this."

Wikipedia is not a place for political squabbles. Fist Nemtsov's statement is a provably false generalization. Second is non-consequitur: there is no proof that these people become billionnaires because they were from Ozero. I would suggest the opposite is true. And so on. This theory is no better than Jewish communism: randomly picked facts to make impression of conspiracy. In summary, this text does not provide verifiable encyclopedic value besides the fact that a political opponent babbles something without proof in order to make the opponent to look bad. -M.Altenmann >t 14:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Bakharev's edit summary: "This is a notable opinion presented as an opinion," does not trump WP:BLP. Statements like "In only a few years these fellows turned from medium-sized entrepreneurs into dollar billionaires <..> continue getting lucrative contracts" in a context hinting that this is because they are Putins buddies, i.e., basically an accusation of corruption, are inadmissible without evidence, per WP:UNDUE. -M.Altenmann >t 14:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Like, "Kovalchuk brothers have seized power over Gazprom;" - how was that? How this dubious gossip (don't tell me that Nemtsov "knew") is supposed to improve information in wikipedia? -M.Altenmann >t 15:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that there may be something of power cluster. But information about that must come from independent experts, which analyze opinions like Nemtsov's, analyze actual facts, put them in proper perspective, and this is a valid reference for wikipedia, not people who say "Putin khuilo". -M.Altenmann >t 15:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

No one tells this is "the truth". However, the opinion by Boris Nemtsov about "Ozero" is certainly notable and deserves inclusion here. In addition, some other sources (like here were also improperly excluded I believe).My very best wishes (talk) 15:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

This is not about "truth". This is WP:BLP. Rumors and falsehoods are inadmissible regardless the notability of the speaker, especially in the article which lacks reliable information. -M.Altenmann >t 04:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Nentsov did not tell anything special. He only mentioned a well-known fact that many members of "Ozero" became very rich and influential, thanks to Putin. This is basically a common place, something described in a lot of other sources. And I think the views by Nemtsov are even more important right now, when the author killed right near the Kremlin, in the area controlled by the Federal Protective Service (Russia)... My very best wishes (talk) 14:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

No. His direct quote (removed) was not "basically a common place". He made specific statements I described above as verifiably false. You are welcome do describe views of Nemtsov using refs from secondary sources, but using them as reference to dubious facts is against both WP:BLP and WP:RS. Martyrdom status has nothing to do with fact-checking. -M.Altenmann >t 15:41, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

More facts needed

By now the article reads more like a mixture of yellow journalism and Soviet-time envy/jealousy towards other's riches. Specifically, the phrase "By now all....Ozero... became rich and powerful" is slanted. The fact is most of them were rich already, to buy land there. I don't think there is a dacha of a Kirov Plant machinist apprentice within 100 miles from Ozero. Yes, rich and powerful flock. big deal. Yes, they talk to each other and buddies help each other out (or cut each other's throats). If they are doing something illegal or immoral, there must be specific events and accusations (with refs). Otherwise I don't see why much hype. Do you want President to be buddies with Lenin's proverbial "cook woman who can rule the state"? -M.Altenmann >t 15:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

You are very welcome to improve this page. My very best wishes (talk) 20:05, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

:-) That's what I am always saying to others. Giggles aside, I did improve it and elsewhere. You probably wanted to say "to expand". Don't care of russian political wrangles. Several generations must change; maybe grandchildren of Russian robber barons nicely called "oligarchs" will start moving towards something that resembles democracy. -M.Altenmann >t 03:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)