Talk:Orleans, Ontario

Queensway

I reverted intothedark's edits because they are wrong. He is confusing the 417 with the Queensway. The Queensway goes from Orleans to Kanata, while the 417 is the highway that veers off. It becomes 174 though. Secondly, Orleans was on the border between Cumberland and Gloucester like the article says. Look at a map. Actually, a map will tell you about the Queensway too. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You are incorrect. The 417 runs from the split out to past Arnprior now. The Queensway is a purely arbitrary name, and is not commonly used to refer to Regional Road 174. Orleans was part of Gloucester. It was never a separate municipality. It was under the administrative control of the municipality of Gloucester, and only the Municipality of Gloucester. Orleans was never part of Cumberland, which was a separate township. You need to check your facts. I know maps clearly display Orleans as lying between Cumberland and Gloucester. But those maps do not reflect the true nature of the administrative reality. Orleans was a 'suburb' to use the term very loosely, of Gloucester. Further, many maps, including mapquest.com still use incorrect names for Regional Road 174. You should look up information about the provincial downloading that occurred, which transferred Highway 17 to the City of Ottawa, and thus resulted in the creation of Regional Road 174. It is possible to call R.R. 174 The Queensway, as that is an unofficial name. The official names are Highway 417, which runs from the Ontario/Quebec border, through the split near St. Laurent, out to roughly Arnprior now, and then becomes Highway 17. Past the split we find the 417 veers off toward South Ottawa (then on to Montreal). The other end of that split leads us to R.R. 174. Drive it, you'll see that's what the sign says. Everything that I changed can be found on other pages at wikipedia, including the information about Highway 417, which you could also get from the MTO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intothedark (talk • contribs)

I'm not going to argue with you. Everything you have said is factually incorrect and can be verified in the contrary. -- Earl Andrew - talk 06:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Well if you insist on reverting to factually incorrect information, fine. It is sad for wikipedia. I present the proof to what I say, I challenge you to do the same.

Highway 417 is the highway that runs from arnprior through Ottawa, veering southwards at the split near St. Laurent. All provincial highways are numbered, some have been assigned names in addition to their numbering. Highway 417, and it alone is factually referred to as the Queensway, though some also extend the name to R.R. 174.

The Proof: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/engineering/417ea/ - a map nearly halfway down the page clearly shows Highway 417, and R.R. 174. One is owned and operated by the province (417) and the other by the city R.R. 174. This was the result of provincial downloading under the Harris government. Also, the 417, even through Ottawa falls under O.P.P. jurisdiction, while the 174 is under City of Ottawa police jurisdiction. However, the forces work together.

See Also:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_417

• http://ottawa.ca/city_services/traffic/26_1_3_2_a_en.shtml - look under 'Champlain' to see 'Champlain and 174 WB Offramp' - This is part of the interchange where Place d'Orleans is!

Now for Orleans, if you look under the archived city council minutes of the former municipality of Gloucester you will see things like:

• By-law No. 101 of 2000; To approve of an art commission at the Orléans Recreation Complex
• By-law No. 108 of 2000; To amend the City's Traffic and Parking By-law No.1 of 1996 with respect to the installation of traffic control measures in;

(i) the new residential development area in Chapel Hill South;

• By-law No. 88 of 2000; To dedicate a 0.3 metre reserve described as Parts 3 and 4, Plan 5R-12710 as a public highway to form part of Carrière Street
• By-law No. 78 of 2000; To approve the change of a street name from Cavalier Crescent, on Plan 4M-106, to Cavalier Way (Chapel Hill South) (Angela Gatto, Legislative Services, ext. 4107).
• A. Resolution - To approve a proposal to upgrade softball facilities at Carrière and Garneau Parks for the Orléans Amateur Fastball Association (Judy Billingsley, Recreation Planner, Recreation and Culture, ext. 4134).
• (ii) establishing a "No Parking" during the weekend time period on Apple Leaf Way and Silver Pines Crescent in Chapel Hill South and;

(iii) establishing all-way "Stop" controls at the Beausejour Drive/Country Walk Drive intersection in Chapel Hill (Rodney Pitchers, Head of Traffic Operations, ext. 4190).

THis is all available in the minutes located at http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/archives/gloucester/council/council_agendas.html

I challenge you to show me the proof that what I say, and back up, is incorrect. Wikipedia is only a great source if information is correct. I am not interested in arguing at all, I am interested in ensuring factual information. I will concede that we could be more specific, and state that R.R. 174 is sometimes referred to as the Queensway by locals, that is true...-Intothedark

I'm not disputing the existance of Highway 174. I know where the 417 runs. However, the Queensway runs from Kanata to Orleans. The Queensway and the 417 are not one in the same. Get a copy of the MapArt Road Atlas of Ontario, look on the Ottawa page then at tile Q 63, and you will see the word "Queensway" right on Highway 174, east of the split. As for Orleans, I can tell you it includes the whole urban area in the northeast corner of Gloucester AND the northwest corner of Cumberland. Just take a look at this map on the city of Ottawa website [1]

The area in Cumberland is known as "Orleans East" by the city. Why would they call it that if it weren't part of Orleans? -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't dispute any of what you say in your last discussion post. I will not revert the page again, but I feel it should be clarified. The MapArt Road Atlas is not a government printed map, and the map I directed you to was. You can certainly call the 174 'The Queensway'. However the official MTO position is that 'The Queensway' refers to the 417 from Boundary Road to the 416. It was on the page I posted. Nonetheless, I don't have a problem with that. But at least clarify the page so it states that the section of Queensway to which you are referring is technically known as R.R. 174.

The city map you showed is a post-amalgamation map. Further, it is a map of suburban neighborhoods, as it is titled. You will note that the communities of Mer Bleu and South March, among others, do not correspond to administrative jurisdictions, which is the change I made. You are ignoring fact.

I will concede that I am not absolutely sure that all of what has been, or is now considered Orleans, fell within the pre-amalgamation administrative jurisdiction of Gloucester. Yet, you can't deny that at least part of it did. The page to which I directed you was proof of that. Further, I lived in Orleans for quite a few years, pre, and post-amalgamation. Park signs all bore the city of Gloucester logo. Further, our tax bill was from the city of Gloucester. I think clarifications to the page are in order, but since you reject mine, I ask you or someone else to make them.

I am disappointed that you refuted evidence from government sources with "Map Art Road Map". Following that logic, I could prove that R.R. 174 doesn't exist! But rather that it is called Highway 17, as mapquest purports. You are no friend of wikipedia, or academia. It is also sad that you are unable to admit you are wrong. To those who use wikipedia, I strongly urge you to never rely on it. It's accuracy is in my opinion highly questionable. You should go back to your fantastical 'Amerada'... lol...Intothedark

Your personal attacks on me prove that you are nothing but a vandal. Obviously half of Orleans is in Gloucester. Of course the parks signs in that half are going to be for Gloucester. However, *part* of Orleans is also in Cumberland. This is a fact. -- Earl Andrew - talk 07:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I would just to add a point to this HEATED debate that some older maps mentionned about an existant Cumberland Township (embedded inside the old Cumberland) that covered the eastern part of Orleans (from Place d'Orleans or Champlain Street and east) with Cumberland east of that until Rockland, although the Pathfinder Map (from Carp, Ontario by the way) in the later pages put a figure of the Ottawa-Carleton region with just Cumberland which makes it confusing. But I find this odd that they had designated Cumberland Township for the populated portion instead of Cumberland period. I know that formally that land wasn't occupied (thus was a township before the Orleans sprawl) until the mid or late 1980's, and maybe they didn't bother changing it or it is just an error by the map company. Anyway I think the Township part was probably run by the former city of Cumberland. --JForget 03:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As someone who grew up in Queenswood Heights and has lived here his entire life let me set everyone straight. Orleans west of Champlain (even after it a big part of it was removed for the expansion of Place D'Orleans in the late 80's) and following south along the Bilberry Creek Trail, south to Navan Road, north to the river, west to Youville (and up along an imaginary line drawn from where Youville meets St. Joseph) was under the administrative control of Gloucester City Council and your postal address could be either "Orleans" or "Gloucester". East of Champlain was under the control of the Township of Cumberland. The Township of Cumberland became the City of Cumberland in 1996 and then became part of Ottawa. Orleans was just an area of the city that happened to have its administrative control split between two cities. For all intents and purposes, most people considered the "Cumberland portion" of Orleans to extend from the Champlain/Ravine line in the west, north to the river, east to Trim, and south to Navan Road. As far as the "Queensway" debate goes while RR 174 is colloquially referred to by many as being "The Queensway", the official definition for "The Queensway" is the Boundary Road to 416 interchange portion of the 417. But that's just semantics, really. I think what really matters is what everyone calls it. Heck, part of me still calls it Highway 17... 206.191.52.229 (talk) 13:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

french version

I've been making links in french articles to Orléans, but it always brings to Orléans, french. I go to the disambigous to Orléans, Ontario, but it still redirects to France. Does anyone know if there is a french version to this article? I also wrote a note in the disambugous page paat 22:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

A page does not exist, I just checked and fixed the error. -- Earl Andrew - talk 23:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Earl Andrew paat 23:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

East of Trim Road

Is the developping part east of Trim Road (Springridge & Valin) part of Fallingbrook or is a different community.--JForget 17:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Pic of Orléans

What should the pic include? Blv St. Joseph, Orléans main road? Or Innes maybe - since its all new?... paat 02:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

St-Joseph could be used as the first photo since it was the main street when it was still a village. Probably also photos of newer areas can be put in the article as well.--JForget 22:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added two historical pictures of Orleans taken on June 1, 1982 to the "History" section of this article. I found them while going through and sorting/digitizing a large collection of unsorted photographs taken by various members of my family. The pictures show Place as it existed then as well as the old Normandy Hotel and the intersection of Champlain and Highway 17. As a lifelong resident of the area I suspect I will come across many other interesting historical shots of Orleans as my photographic sorting project continues and I will contribute more as appropriate.Php man (talk) 13:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I have added a new pic that I found in the family archives. This picture shows St. Joseph Blvd. near Place D'Orleans (looking towards the Duford hill) as it appeared circa 1971 (the picture was taken by my father while looking at our future home in Queenswood Heights). At the same time I removed the picture that was basically a duplicate of the Place image (showing a zoom of the Champlain/Highway 17 intersection). I have a few other images (a reverse view looking down the Duford hill in 1971 and two images of Place shortly after construction in 1979). Is there interest in establishing a picture gallery here? I will gladly donate them. Php man (talk) 18:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Notting Gate

Thanks for giving a precision. I've thought it was called Millenium, considering OC Transpo has put Millenium as a future transit station probably based on the developping area near Trim Road.--JForget 22:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"Nickname: Whorleans"?

WTF? 67.68.18.74 00:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The article contends that English residents typically pronounce it "orleenz", which is true. But it then goes on to say that this is similar to how english people pronounce New Orleans. In my experience, this is not true. English people typically pronounce New Orleans "new or-lee-ins" (3 syllables), which is different than the local "or-leenz" (2 syllables). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.255.51 (talk) 10:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed it, by deleting the phrase saying the pronunciations are the same. Now, it merely gives the local pronunciation. (-Belegdal)

Orléans or Orleans

The City of Ottawa refers to the neighbourhood as "Orléans", and the ward also uses the accent (City of Ottawa - Ward 1 - Orléans). Should the entire article not be consistent with this usage? If "Orléans" is simply the "native name" (not common or official name) then the article should be moved to Orleans, Ontario. -M.Nelson (talk) 04:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I had placed the accented name in the native_name field to follow the same format as the infobox on the article Montreal. It has since been changed, so I've moved the accented version in the official_name field accordingly. As for this article, it probably should be moved over to Orleans, Ontario considering the non-accented spelling is more common in English, which takes precedence over the official name according to WP:CANSTYLE/WP:PLACE. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 04:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, I'm all for the move. Po' buster (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the following edits, stating that "Orleans" is the official name is a misnomer as M.Nelson pointed out. The common anglophone spelling only takes precedence over the official spelling in the usage within the article and in article's title itself (hence why we write Beijing, rather than 北京). It does not replace the official title itself, so the infobox should remain as-is. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 02:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

But "Orléans" isn't an official name. It is simply a name referred to by "sometimes" by the City. There is no official status. I remember driving by the "Orleans" sign as a kid without the "é" and some french resident had spray painted an accent. I think it should remain Orleans as the official, which it is. Po' buster (talk) 14:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the spelling with the accent is the official name in both French and English. Take a look at the signs today, they'll pretty much all have an accent (example), as does Place d'Orléans, local newspapers such as Orléans Online and Orléans Star, and the City of Ottawa's website itself among others. The use of the non-accented name was challenged a little over 20 years ago (a dispute which was also noted in Paul Demers' song Notre Place in 1989), and the accent was officially adopted on July 10th, 1990. If you can read French, this article highlights that part of Orleans' history. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 17:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, however it should still list english first on english wikipedia. For example the Beijing article list Beijing, and than 北京 underneath, Not the other way around. Po' buster (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

True, but neither of those two are official names, and it's ultimately the template that controls their positioning. I would suggest bringing up the matter over to their talk rather than introduce a factual error to have the names listed in reverse. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 19:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I remember Gloucester officially changing the spelling of the community (thanks for that source, Io). Orléans is the official English spelling. Orleans is obviously a common English usage. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:54, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering accents don't exist in the english language it would be impossible for "Orléans" to be the official english spelling. Po' buster (talk) 21:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether diacritics are used in English is asides the point, the common spelling is still not the official spelling, i.e. the one used in all official documents, signs and whatnot. With computers, adding accents is hardly an issue, and when you're in a strongly bilingually-inclined city as Ottawa, the accent will continue to prevail even in English. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 22:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Go with Orleans, Ontario. This is the English-language Wikipedia, not Canadian Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

We're not arguing the title of the page, I already stated that Orleans, Ontario should be used per earlier-mentioned guidelines (someone just has to get an admin to move the page over a redirect). Wikipedia's policy does not, however, change the official spelling as used by the City and community itself (i.e. in the infobox). — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 22:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the infobox, either delete the french version or make the english version prominant. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no reason to delete the accented name, it is still used in English. That's like telling Beijing they aren't allowed to write 北京, or Malé that they're not allowed to have an accent in their infobox because that's your personal preference. Don't let your personal bias get the better of you. If you have a problem with how the official and common spellings are sorted in the infobox, then discuss the matter with the infobox people, not here. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 22:41, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

At least, make the english version prominant. Afterall, this is the English-language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The accented name is not used in english. It was adopted by the City after numerous complaints of french residents (usually former Quebecers) trying to push the french agenda. WP:CANSTYLE/WP:PLACE indicates "the title needs to be what an English speaker would most likely recognize as the usual name of the subject in actual usage" and "For geographic names, again, the current practice is to reflect actual English usage" .... Orléans is not the english usage, Orleans is, the article needs to be moved. Po' buster (talk) 22:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again, feel free to move the article anytime. I already stated that from the start, now you're just regurgitating the guidelines I provided earlier and arguing an already dead argument. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 22:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I've already tried, unsuccessfully. GoodDay (talk) 22:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I made the request and modified the infobox since everyone loves to complain but no one seems to want to actually do anything. The page should be moved in no time. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 23:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. GoodDay (talk) 23:37, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

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