Talk:Order of Nine Angles/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: A. Parrot (talk · contribs) 03:57, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	The terms for types of ONA members (Dreccs, Balobians, Rounwytha, etc.) need to be formatted consistently. Right now they're sometimes in quotes, sometimes in italics, sometimes in plain text. I think you could just use plain text. Sure thing. I'll format them accordingly. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply] The term "anados", in the last sentence of the section on the term "nine angles", needs explanation. Hmm, yes; I don't actually know what that term means. That was one of User:Coolmoon's additions; perhaps they could help explain? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply] I've looked at the primary source that Coolmoon added; it appears that in that context "anados" is used to refer to a journey or quest, so I have changed the word to make things clearer. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:47, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	The one hangup is that the second volume of Long's Satanic Letters (1992b) isn't cited in the article. I have removed this from the References list. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:47, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Because the subject is so obscure, the article has to rely on the ONA's own texts for a large chunk of what it says, but that doesn't affect its neutrality, and it clearly uses academic sources whenever possible.
	2c. it contains no original research.	The sources I've spot-checked support the text, so this doesn't seem to be a problem.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Earwig's tool shows the article only has short phrases and attributed quotations in common with other texts online.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	I'd like to know in a little more detail about what is hermetic about the ONA's beliefs, though simply explaining "anados" (above) might address that. Unfortunately we don't really have secondary sources that expand on the Hermeticist elements of the ONA system. Accordingly, I'm not really sure how we could expand on this point at present. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply] Monette writes that the "core mythos and cosmology [of the ONA] are genuinely hermetic," with the ONA's seven-fold way being a hermetic system. The fact that he gives the ONA as an example of hermeticism - titling the ONA chapter "Hermeticism: The Order of Nine Angles" is surely indicative. Pavane7 (talk) 16:09, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	The image of rioters could be removed for being only tangentially relevant, but I don't insist on it.
	7. Overall assessment.	On hold

Many thanks for your review, A. Parrot! As you point out, we don't have a huge wealth of secondary, academic sources that focus on this group but perhaps in future such studies will be produced and the article improved accordingly. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Midnightblueowl, Coolmoon, Pavane7: I looked into the hermeticism question a little more. "Further Notes Concerning The Hermetic Origins Of The O9A" (currently used as ref 100 in the article) points out some of the hermetic influences on the O9A. At one point it says this:

"That the O9A septenary system does indeed represent an older… Hellenic and genuinely hermetic occult tradition is gradually becoming increasing known outside of O9A circles, partly due to articles such as "Perusing The Seven Fold Way: Historical Origins Of The Septenary System Of The Order of Nine Angles", partly due to Myatt's translations of the Pymander and Ιερός Λόγος tractates of the ancient Corpus Hermeticum – in which physis and a septenary system are mentioned several times – and partly due to his notes on the fourth tractate (Ἑρμοῦ πρὸς Τάτ ὁ κρατῆρ ἡ μονάς) in which notes he pointed out the use of a septenary system by John Dee as described in Theorem XVIII of Dee's 1564 work Monas Hieroglyphica".

Pymander is Poimandres (Corpus Hermeticum I), which says the soul ascends through the seven celestial spheres toward divinity. I can provide a couple of scholarly references for that if you want. The O9A article also points to early modern esoteric texts that refer to the celestial spheres. So it seems the Seven Fold Way is inspired by this concept of ascension through the spheres. The O9A article doesn't directly say that, but that reference and the ones I have would support a sentence like this:

The Seven Fold Way is influenced by the emphasis on the number seven in various ancient and early modern hermetic texts, including the Poimandres,^[1] in which a human is described as ascending through the seven celestial spheres to unite with god.^[2]

That might stray a little too close to synthesis, though. What do you think? A. Parrot (talk) 00:27, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I would be cautious on this one. I think that an example of synthesis such as this might open the doors to great deal more synthesis and overreliance on primary sources. Midnightblueowl (talk)

Midnightblueowl: What about simply saying "The Seven Fold Way is influenced by the emphasis on the number seven in various ancient and early modern hermetic texts"? A. Parrot (talk) 00:36, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But we do already say something fairly similar in the opening paragraph of the "Initiation and the Seven Fold Way" section. We might just be repeating ourselves. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:54, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'll pass the article. A. Parrot (talk) 01:41, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

^ R. Parker (April 2015). "Further Notes Concerning The Hermetic Origins Of The O9A". Archived from the original (PDF) on 21 September 2015.
^ van den Broek, Roelof (2011). "Hermetic Literature I: Antiquity". Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism. Wouter J. Hanegraaff, Antoine Faivre, Roelof van den Broek, and Jean-Pierre Brach (editors). Leiden: Brill. p. 490. ISBN 978-90-04-15231-1. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

[1] R. Parker (April 2015). "Further Notes Concerning The Hermetic Origins Of The O9A". Archived from the original (PDF) on 21 September 2015.

[2] van den Broek, Roelof (2011). "Hermetic Literature I: Antiquity". Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism. Wouter J. Hanegraaff, Antoine Faivre, Roelof van den Broek, and Jean-Pierre Brach (editors). Leiden: Brill. p. 490. ISBN 978-90-04-15231-1. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

[1]

[2]