Talk:Old Javanese

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On 1 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Old Javanese language. The result of the discussion was Moved to Old Javanese.

Writing system

I find something weird with this statement:

Kawi uses a unique script for writing commonly called hanacaraka; the more correct term is "Dentawiyanjana". It is a syllabic alphabet consisting of 20 letters and ten numbers and a number of vowel and consonant modifiers.

Kawi, which is considered as Old Javanese, uses Hanacaraka (Carakan script)? I know that Javanese language uses Hanacaraka (Carakan script), but I think Kawi uses its own script called Kawi script. And Kawi script is different with Javanese script (I know that because I can read Javanese script, but not Kawi script).

I look up at Kawi script page, and it's written there:

It is also the name of the language used in these inscriptions and texts, more generally called "Old Javanese".

So I think Kawi language (Old Javanese) uses its own Kawi script (which's different with Hanacaraka), while (Modern) Javanese language uses Hanacaraka (Carakan script).

Can somebody explain this? Any linguist can check its accuracy? Thank you very much. Yofan Pratama P (talk) 23:52, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

German linguist's work on kawi

http://books.google.com/books?id=cwYJAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac00buscgoog

Rajmaan (talk) 18:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Materials and sources on Kawi

Über die Kawi-Sprache auf der Insel Java: nebst einer Einleitung über die Verschiedenheit des menschlichen Sprachbaues und ihren Einfluss auf die geistige Entwickelung des Menschengeschlechts, Volume 3 By Wilhelm Freiherr von Humboldt, Johann Karl Eduard Buschmann

http://books.google.com/books?id=cwYJAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Über die Kawi-sprache auf der insel Java, nebst einer einleitung über die verschiedenheit des menschlichen sprachbaues und ihren einfluss auf die geistige entwickelung des menschengeschlechts (1836)

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac00buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac01buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac02buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac03buscgoog

https://archive.org/details/berdiekawisprac00unkngoog

Kawi-balineesch-nederlandsch woordenboek (1897)

https://archive.org/details/kawibalineeschn00tuukgoog

Kawi-Balineesch-Nederlandsch glossarium op het Oudjavaansche Râmâyana. Bewerkt door H.H. Juynboll. Uitg. door het Koninklijk Instituut voor de Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indië (1902)

https://archive.org/details/kawibalineeschne00juynuoft

Bhrata-Yuddha; oldjavaansch heldendicht, uitg. door J.G.H. Gunning (1903)

https://archive.org/details/bhratayuddhaoldj00gunnuoft

Rajmaan (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kawi vs Old Javanese

Can anybody competently describe differences between the two? It often happens that both names are used in the same text interchangeably so there is a bit of confusion. What is their exact relation? Is kawi a diffrerent language or (as it seemms to me)an elaborated (ie sanskritized) form of Old Javanese? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.26.236.205 (talk) 14:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Should be answered now that I've merged the articles. I suspect that literary Kawi was more Sanskritized that the vernacular, as is typical of literary registers, but didn't say that as I don't have a source for it. — kwami (talk) 23:55, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Polyamorph:@Kwamikagami: The so-called Kawi language is a literary language, while Old Javanese is an older phase of the Javanese language. Kawi language can refer to any phase of Javanese, i.e. Old, Middle, and New Javanese. The Old Javanese language is almost exclusively attested in its Kawi form, but not always. Some inscriptions were just written in prose. So Kawi and Old Javanese are not identical. Meursault2004 (talk) 00:40, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Meursault2004: please feel free to revert / clean up / rewrite. You clearly know more about this than I do! — kwami (talk) 00:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kwamikagami: I will move this page back to "Old Javanese". "Kawi" refers to a literary tradition more than to a linguistic entity. The language is overwhelmingly called "Old Javanese", regardless of the degree of Sanskritization which may vary from text to text. –Austronesier (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me, if for no other reason than that it's a more intelligible title. — kwami (talk) 21:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Duh, I can't LOL. I will have to make a technical request, but am too lazy for it now. –Austronesier (talk) 21:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did it. — kwami (talk) 21:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 1 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Old Javanese. Per consensus (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 01:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kawi language → Old Javanese language – "Old Javanese language" is the WP:COMMONNAME. While "Kawi language" is clearly also in use (see ISO name and Glottolog), "Old Javanese" outweighs "Kawi" as the name of the language in specialist and non-specialist sources.

Simple search results in JSTOR and Google Scholar are even among the two terms, but this is due to the impacts of Humboldt's monograph on the language from 1838. Every work citing Humboldt's book will thus create a hit for "Kawi language", even if the author of the work uses a different term. If "Humboldt" is filtered out from the search results, we get a clearer picture of the actual usage:

Google Scholar
"Kawi language":[1] 236

"Old Javanese language":[2] 412

JSTOR
"Kawi language":[3] 49

"Old Javanese language":[4] 93

Additional evidence comes from the relevant specialist literature. Two academics who have devoted their scholarly career to the language, P.J. Zoetmulder[5] and Thomas W. Hunter, have used "Old Javanese". Also in overview sources in the field, "Old Javanese" is generally used, e.g. in Blust's The Austronesian languages or in Adelaar and Himelmann's The Austronesian Languages of Asia and Madagascar.

As mentioned above, the elephants in the room are the tertiary sources Ethnologue and Glottolog, but this is not the only case where ISO language names are at odds with WP:COMMONNAME. Austronesier (talk) 15:24, 1 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 02:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following is from WP:RM/TR:

- Noting Talk:Kawi language#Kawi vs Old Javanese, so given there has been some discussion though should be contested under WP:PCM, though I'm not objecting to the move. -Kj cheetham (talk) 09:42, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Note that Talk:Kawi language#Kawi vs Old Javanese coincides with kwami's bold move Old Javanese language → Kawi language (in 2017), so basically he's talking it back now after my (admittedly quite late) objection to it. –Austronesier (talk) 10:02, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - I am going to procedurally contest this given given there has been discussion. -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(end copy from RM/TR) – robertsky (talk) 16:39, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but is there a reason to prefer "Old Javanese language" over "Old Javanese"? Srnec (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Srnec: I'd be perfectly fine with that too, but a natural disambiguator is perhaps necessary:[6]. –Austronesier (talk) 21:43, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, it goes just as well without "language", as in Old High German. –Austronesier (talk) 21:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'd prefer just "Old Javanese". Less wordy. Srnec (talk) 00:55, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Old Javanese. Shwcz (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.