Talk:Hantharwady United F.C.

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Requested move 16 April 2015

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Hantharwady United F.C. per consensus. bd2412 T 13:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okktha United F.C. → Hanthawaddy United FC – The article says that the club was renamed in 2012. --Relisted. Andrewa (talk) 03:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC) Verbcatcher (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No opposition to the main gist of the move, but it should be to Hanthawaddy United F.C. to be consistent with all the other Burmese clubs (see Category:Myanmar National League clubs). Number 5 7 14:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm happy with that name. However I am concerned that there is no citation for the name change. Indeed, there are no non-dead citations in the article and both external links are in Burmese, which I don't understand. However, the page has been edited recently in what appears to be a knowledgeable manner and it doesn't look like a hoax, so I think we should move it. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Impossible to decide this as there is no attempt whatsoever to relate the rationale to the article title policy despite every effort having been made to draw editors' attention to it. Suggest also reading WP:official names. Andrewa (talk) 03:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Irritated response: Give us a break! What do you want me to say? There are no English language links in the article. A web search didn't show anything useful. Some would argue for the deletion of the article on this basis, however there have been several recent edits that appear to be informed and sensible, and we should cut some slack for articles relating to developing countries where web coverage is limited. It appears that the official name of the football club changed in 2012. Several other Myanmar football articles link here using the proposed name or minor variants of it. There is no evidence of this being a temporary change, or of the club being known by its old name. The proposed name follows the criteria listed in WP:CRITERIA: Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness and Consistency. I am not a follower of this club. I know little about Myanmar. I just stumbled upon this article and it seemed clear to me that the title was in conflict with the content. I proposed a title change hoping that someone with more familiarity with the subject would contribute to the discussion. Is there any reason to retain the existing name? Verbcatcher (talk) 04:44, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly sorry to irritate you, and thanks for your efforts. What else might I want... well, for a start a link to your web search that didn't show anything useful would be ideal, and at the very least a statement you've done one would have been helpful. From what you've said I'm glad I relisted, both because I guess closing as no valid rationale, no support would have been even more irritating, and because it sounds like there is a valid rationale and a move would improve Wikipedia, which is the bottom line. But give the admins a break too. We can't read your mind. Andrewa (talk) 07:02, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 16:42, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Hantharwady United F.C., seems to be correct spelling of the name per Soccerway and NFT. Giant Snowman 17:39, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis I have analysed English Wikipedia articles that link to Okktha United F.C., producing the table given below. This excludes articles that only link using Template:Myanmar National League, talk pages and pages that relate to the move proposal.

Page	Link displayed as	Timeframe	Hantharwady	Hanthawaddy	Hanthawardy	Okktha	Okkthar
List of top-division football clubs in AFC countries	Okktha United	Outdated				X
List of football clubs in Myanmar	Okktha United	Outdated				X
2009 Myanmar National League	Okktha United	2009				X
2009–10 Myanmar National League	Okkthar United FC	2010					X
2010 AFF Championship squads	Okktha United	2010				X
2010 Myanmar National League	Okkthar United	2010					X
Dumaka Francis Ifeanyi	Okktha United F.C.	2010				X
MFF Cup	Okktha United	2010				X
2011 in Burmese football	Okktha United	2011				X
2011 Myanmar National League	Okktha United	2011				X
2011 Singapore Cup	Okktha United FC	2011				X
Djanal Herve Pierre	Okkthar United FC	2011					X
Football at the 2011 Southeast Asian Games – Men's team squads	Hantharwady United	2011	X
2012 AFF Championship squads	Hantharwady United	2012	X
2012 MFF Cup	Hanthawardy United	2012			X
2012 Myanmar National League	Hantharwady United	2012	X
2012 Myanmar National League	Hantharwady United	2012	X
2013 Myanmar National League	Hantharwady United	2013	X
Aung Moe	Hantharwady United	2013	X
Football at the 2013 Southeast Asian Games – Men's team squads	Hantharwady United	2013	X
2014 AFC U-19 Championship squads	Hantharwady United	2014	X
2014 MFF Cup	Hanthawardy United	2014			X
2014 MNL-2	Hantharwady United	2014	X
MNL-2	Hantharwady United	2014	X
2015 Myanmar National League	Hantharwady United	2015	X
Template:Myanmar National League	Hantharwady United	Current	X
Aung Myint Tun	Hantharwady United	Current	X
Bennett Mnguni	Okktha United FC	Current				X
Mai Aih Naing	Okktha United	Current				X
Myanmar national football team	Hantharwady United	Current	X
Myanmar national under-20 football team	Hantharwady United	Current	X
Myanmar national under-23 football team	Hantharwady United	Current	X
Taungoo	Hanthawaddy United Football Club	Current		X

Totals			16	1	2	11	3

All of these articles either rename the link or they link using a redirect. Of those that display to "Okktha United" or "Okkthar United" almost all refer to 2011 and earlier. Except for two, all of the pages that refer to the current team use "Hantharwady United", "Hanthawardy United" or "Hanthawaddy United". (The two pages that refer to the current team as Okktha United are stubs for individual footballers.)

From this is clear that there is a current football club named "Hantharwady United", or something similar. I have not found a source that confirms that this club was formerly named "Okktha United". However, even if these are two separate clubs, the current article is clearly about "Hantharwady United", and the name of the article should indicate this.

Regarding spelling, the official name of club is presumably in the Burmese alphabet. There are several systems for the Romanization of Burmese, this may be the reason for the multiple spellings. The most common spelling in English Wikipedia is "Hantharwady". This matches the external links found by User:GiantSnowman.

None of the articles refer to the club as "Hantharwady United F.C.". In spite of this, I favour this name for consistency within Category:Myanmar National League clubs

Conclusion: Move to Hantharwady United F.C.. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:56, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Still no relevant evidence presented supporting the move in terms of WP:AT, or even evidence that the proponents have bothered to read the policy. In fact the evidence above seems to weakly favour the existing name. Time to stop beating about the bush. If we're not going to use WP:AT, why have it? Andrewa (talk) 00:41, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrewa: - you've either not seen, or are choosing to ignore, the two sources I presented earlier confirming the correct name/spelling. If the latter, why? Giant Snowman 15:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly what do you mean by correct? No, I have neither not seen nor am I choosing to ignore your evidence. Rather, I am claiming that it is not particularly relevant. If you wish to make a case for the move, please do it in terms of the article naming policy. Or, if there is reason for departing from that policy in this case, please give it. Andrewa (talk) 05:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'Correct' as in both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME. Giant Snowman 08:02, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - per the sources noted by GS and the specific comment here at RSSSF that Okkthar United were renamed Hantharwady United, which seems to resolve the naming issue and the spelling. the RSSSF comment supplies all of the relevant information to confirm moving the article as well as satisfying all five criteria of WP:NC and WP:COMMONNAME (per the sources cited, which are some of the most commonly used english language sources for football clubs). Fenix down (talk) 13:41, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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