Talk:Nur al-Din Zengi

Untitled

LEGACY

Curious to me the praise heaped upon the man in this section. He established Universities. . ."primarily concerned with teaching the Quran and the Hadith" . . . That's not a university in a sense I understand. Nur ad-Din was in his right a great man, but he was a true fanatic. One should note that. Cutugno (talk) 19:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Creation of disambiguation page?

I've found several books that refer to this person as "Nur al-Din" (the one that springs to mind at the moment is 'Fighting for Christendom: Holy War and the Crusader' by Christopher Tyerman. Whilst searching for 'Nur al-Din' on Wikipedia leads to this page, 'Nur al Din' does not. Would a disambiguation page be appropriate here? ResPublicae (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure...none of the redirects to Noor al-Deen come from other pages. In my totally biased opinion they should all link here! There is a note on the other page but it seems to be in the wrong spot... Adam Bishop (talk) 15:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Is "Nur ad-Din Zangi" really the best name? Zangi was his father's name, so he was sometimes called Nur ad-Din ibn Zangi. His name was Mahmud though, so Nur ad-Din Mahmud is more usual, if we need to disambiguate. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I moved him to the current name just to get the bare name free for disambiguation purposes. I have no problem with moving again to a name such as you suggest. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 22:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

But while we're on the subject, what do you make of the article called Noor Uddin Zangi? SamuelTheGhost (talk) 22:43, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, weird, I never noticed that one. It's Nur ad-Din but everything is slightly off...I guess if we could source some of it, it would be worth merging. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to have a go. If you don't, I'd be inclined just to scrap it and redirect. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 11:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 23:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Nur ad-Din Zangi → Nur ad-Din – The spelling of "Zangi" conflicts with the title of his father's article and its presences is anyway likely to confuse readers. He is known just as "Nur ad-Din" and his father just as "Zengi" most of the time. Srnec (talk) 00:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support. I have a feeling I tried to move this back, but somehow it didn't work (or I was just too lazy, maybe). This name doesn't make any sense anyway. We could use "Nur ad-Din ibn Zengi/Zangi", but he's never referred to that way. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:17, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Courtesy

In view of the fact that I made the original move, followed by the discussion about it still present on this page above, it would have been a simple courtesy to have alerted me to the recent move request, where I would certainly have wanted to contribute my view if I had known about it. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, what is your view? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. The current name page, Nur al-Din, has over 60 notable people bearing that name in some transliteration, and disambiguation policy is that no one person should be primary topic unless his fame exceeds all the others put together. It is particuarly confusing to distinguish between ibn Zengi and all the rest by a trivial difference in transliteration. I've just put some more entries into the call of the "Authority control" template in the article, which allows you to see that LCCN and WorldCat both go for "Nūr al-Dīn, Atabeg of Syria". That strikes me as a good choice (or put the atabeg bit in brackets). SamuelTheGhost (talk) 12:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

True. I didn't like "Nur ad-Din Zangi" as opposed to "Nur ad-Din ibn Zangi", although I suppose it doesn't really matter, since he wasn't Arabic. It just looks strange with his Arabic name(s). But what about "Nur ad-Din Mahmud", would that be sufficiently unambiguous? Adam Bishop (talk) 19:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Possible, but I think less good. It's liable to confusion with Nur al-Din Muhammad. To use "Atabeg of Syria" as a disambiguating phrase is much more explicit, and I think that if that's what we had people would accept it without further argument. Also its use by Library of Congress and WorldCat could be counted as WP:RS, so policy favours it. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 21:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, but despite that, there was no such as the "atabeg of Syria", so we'd end up with an inaccurate title. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, what about "atabeg of Aleppo" or even just "(atabeg)"? SamuelTheGhost (talk) 11:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course now I probably look like I'm just being a pain in the butt, but he was also atabeg of Mosul :) Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes to both observations. But he was atabeg of Aleppo first, and the purpose of the phrase is just to disambiguate him, not list all his acquisitions. Feel free to change it to "atabeg of Aleppo and Mosul" if you really think that helps the aims of wikipedia. I actually still think, all in all, that "atabeg of Syria" is best, mainly because of LCCN and WorldCat. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 15:01, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

So long as "Nur ad-Din" redirects to this page, what is the use of a disambiguating phrase? Especially, when there is no obvious one? Unless we are going to redirect the title to the disambiguation page and fix all the incoming links. I'm not. The problem of ambiguity is settled by the hatnote and that hatnote must remain as long as the redirect does. My own opinion is that our friend the atabeg is probably the primary usage for several variations of this name and these should all redirect here. Srnec (talk) 19:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

"Nur ad-Din" no longer redirects to this page, so that answers that. I have fixed all relevant incooming links from articles. My suggestion, above, for a move went unanswered for nearly a week. It would have been more appropriate for Smec to have joined the discussion rather than just reverting my move. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 21:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That's not how it works. You put forward an informal proposal, to which Adam raised a potential objection and then you went ahead and moved the page anyway. This after a formal move request that was also open for a week to which you did not participate was closed in favour of the title you have now moved the article from. And now you've gone and made it impossible for me to revert you! This is a discussion? What the fuck did I open a requested move for? Srnec (talk) 02:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me explain one thing. I moved the article from "Nur ad-Din" to "Nur ad-Din Zangi" in January 2010. My interest was primarily in the name page, which I did a lot of work on. So I later removed "Nur ad-Din Zangi" from my watch list but retained "Nur ad-Din" there. This meant that when you proposed your move on 14 August I was unaware of it, and didn't discover it unil BDD actually made the move. This is perhaps a weakness in the sytem, that proposed moves don't get flagged up to watchers of the destination page.

Following my move suggestion on 25 August I naturally assumed that this page was on your watch list, and I checked from your contribs that you were still logging in daily, so I thought you weren't going to participate in further discussion, and I took the silence to indicate consent, or at least apathy.

There is nothing to stop us from further reasoned debate about this, and BDD or another admin can if necessary be asked to make any move we eventually agree on. Edit warring is not the way to go, but I have at least made sure that things are in a consistent state, even if not one to your liking. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 09:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The problem being that this Nur ad-Din is more famous than the others all put together and he is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the namespaces Nur ad-Din and Nur al-Din at the very least. Searching for those gives pages and pages on this guy and only occasionally instances for the rest. Their notability for the identical name within Arabic has no bearing whatsoever on this WP:ENGLISH form. As for all the sniffiness about courtesy, it's always to be appreciated but not ever to be demanded: if you're concerned about moves to this page, keep an eye on it. — LlywelynII 10:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Title move

@SamuelTheGhost:, I wanted to consult you (and other editors) in advance since the last schism. I am considering we move the article to a different title, mainly because while Nur ad-Din was Atabeg/Emir of Aleppo from 1146–1174, he was also Emir/Sultan of Damascus from 1154–1174. The latter being of higher prominence, or at the least we can agree he wasn't simply "atabeg of Aleppo." I am considering Nur ad-Din of Syria (as one of his accomplishments was a unified Syrian sultanate), or Nur ad-Din of Aleppo and Damascus. DA1 (talk) 10:38, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

LlywelynII, Adam Bishop; Any thoughts on the matter?

Maybe use his date of death? Other articles use a date in the title sometimes. "Nur ad-Din (died 1174)" Adam Bishop (talk) 20:13, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Like which articles? I would think Nur ad-Din is large enough to warrant a of Syria or similar suffix. He was Sultan of unified Syria and a major figure of world history. A (died 1174) wouldn't be an improvement from the existing "Atabeg of Aleppo" disambiguation. DA1 (talk) 00:21, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Some members of the Ibelin family - Guy of Ibelin (1286–1308) for example. Relatively inconsequential people compared to Nur ad-Din of course. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:47, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Unless you're objecting, I'm hoping change it to "Nur ad-Din of Syria". My idea was to make the title/search simpler, not complicate it. Date of birth/deaths are really on no one's mind when looking up an article title. May do it a few days later, in case anyone wants to chime in. DA1 (talk) 02:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd vote for "Nur ad-Din (died 1174)" as well. Was Syria ever used formally for Nur ad-Din's dominions? Srnec (talk) 22:53, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Nureddin Mahmud Zengi

He is referred to as Nureddin Mahmud Zengi in Turkish sources, the anachronism argument simply doesn't cut it. In modern Turkish sources he isn't referred to as Nur ad-Din. Arabic isn't written in the Latin script, better change the page name into the Arabic variant then. KirmiziAdam (talk) 12:18, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

I think it should simply be titled "Nur Ad-Din Zengi." This makes the most sense. DivineReality (talk) 17:24, 24 October 2020 (UTC)