Talk:Norman Moore (politician)

moving content

"In September 2005, he discussed his concerns over the decline of federalism in his own party, and the possibility of Western Australia seceding from the rest of the country." - I've moved this content from the article, as it is contestible, and needs to be sourced for inclusion in a living person's biography. -- saberwyn 07:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I reinserted it into the article, with a citation. Moondyne 06:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Move Query

I would like to take issue with the move of this page from Norman Moore to Norman Frederick Moore which User:Carcharoth justified with "Common name, making way for other people with this name".

Firstly, what other people with this name? I see none on wikipedia.

Secondly, if this person is to be disambiguated from other Norman Moores, the convention is to append "(politician)" to the end of the title. His middle name should only be included if he actually is commonly referred to as "Norman Frederick Moore".

Bush shep (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see this or think about it too hard until after I'd added a hatnote at Norman Moore[1]. I think that the Australian politician is of at least equal notability to the British doctor/historian and neither article is entitled to usurp the Norman Moore article to the detriment of the other. Norman Moore should be a disambiguation page linked to Norman Moore (politician) and Norman Moore (historian). Refer WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Moondyne 06:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that there is another, possibly even more notable Norman Winfred Moore, the conservationist. [2] Moondyne 06:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the hatnote - I'd forgotten to do that. It took long enough to dab all the Australian political pages... :-) I hadn't created a dab page because I was only aware of two notable people called Norman Moore. Turns out I didn't look hard enough. The conservationist is linked on Wikipedia. See British Association of Nature Conservationists. There is also a Norman Moore mentioned as an "art direction and design" guy for several music albums. Anyway, I'd be very happy for Norman Moore to become a disambiguation page. As for the article titles, I personally prefer these to use full names or abbreviated middle names, with redirects created as needed. I don't think we should rely on people to know what someone's profession is, or whether we've used "politician" or "Australian politician" or whatnot. The baronet can be moved to Sir Norman Moore (it is acceptable to use "Sir" as a disambiguator), and a start created for the conservationist at Norman W. Moore (the name he publishes under), and redirects should be created from Norman F. Moore, Norman Winfred Moore and so on. I see that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Qualifier between bracketing parentheses agrees with me: "try to avoid this type of disambiguation where possible (use disambiguation techniques listed above if these apply more "naturally") – but if no other disambiguation technique comes naturally, this type of disambiguation is the most preferred one" - to my mind, using middle names to disambiguate comes more naturally. Carcharoth (talk) 07:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Dab page done at Norman Moore. As I said above, the guideline says middle name disambiguation is OK, so please don't move the articles to "qualifier" titles without discussing further here or elsewhere. More useful than worrying about article titles would be to add the politician's birth date from here (which uses his full name, by the way). I'll try and do the conservationist start tonight. Carcharoth (talk) 08:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. In Australia the "(politician)" or "(Australian politician)" qualifier are widely used, and a middle name qualifier is rarely used. See Category:Australian Labor Party politicians and Category:Liberal Party of Australia politicians, for examples. I can't find where or if this has been discussed and agreed upon, but it definitely is a convention. I'd have thought that it made better sense also, myself. Moondyne 08:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I reread Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) and reckon it's at odds with your interpretation. Under Middle names and abbreviated names it says "Adding middle names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (that is: if this format of the name is not the commonly used one to refer to this person) is not advised." Under Qualifier between bracketing parentheses it says "Some standardisation of the bracketed disambiguator is possible, for example "(musician)" and "(politician)" are very recognisable.", and further down "... but if no other disambiguation technique comes naturally, this type of disambiguation is the most preferred one.". Moondyne 08:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no objections to a move to Norman Moore (politician). Unlike the other Norman Moore, I don't think he has been anything other than a politician. i.e. only one career. Carcharoth (talk) 12:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

My view would be that the appropriate qualifier for this particular Norman Moore is as proposed by Moondyne in his/her post at 06:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC). I have not heard this Norman Moore referred to as anything other than Norman Moore. As for the article about Sir Norman Moore the title would seem to be against naming conventions (as I understand them) by including the 'honourific' "Sir". Shadow007 (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I was going by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), which says ""Sir" may be used in article titles as a disambiguator." There is also the problem here that he worked as a doctor, but is more famous as a historian of medicine. I think the "Sir" disambiguation is preferable here, and will be raising all this in a naming discussion at some point. Carcharoth (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

OK. I started the promised discussion here. See also Talk:Norman Moore. Carcharoth (talk) 06:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't have a strong view of the issue of using "Sir" as a disambiguator, but in the above case specifically, it seems to be the sensible way to go. As for project wide naming conventions, I will leave that for others to comment. My main issue was with the politician, for which we now seem to have a consensus, so I'll now move him to Norman Moore (politician). Moondyne 06:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)