Talk:Nordic

Nordic includes Germany???

Recently Germany was included among the Nordic groups. Several sources were given for this claim. Copied below the entries

First of all this addition seems to contradict Wikitionaries definition of Nordic
Adjective Nordic

  1. of, or relating to Scandinavia, its people, language and culture
  2. of, or relating to the family of North Germanic languages.

[edit] Noun Nordic

  1. a person of Scandinavian descent or having features typical of Scandinavian people

Webster is talking about Northern Germanic, a group which the Germans are not members of Meriam-Webster online
Main Entry: 1Nor·dic Pronunciation: 'nor-dik Function: adjective Etymology: French nordique, from nord north, from Old French north, from Old English 1 : of or relating to the Germanic peoples of northern Europe and especially of Scandinavia 2 : of or relating to a group or physical type of the Caucasian race characterized by tall stature, long head, light skin and hair, and blue eyes 3 a : of or relating to competitive ski events involving cross-country racing, ski jumping, or biathlon -- compare ALPINE b : of, relating to, or being cross-country skiing

Wordnet refers to the Germans, but in the context of Nazi word retorics. Wordnet
Noun

S: (n) Scandinavian, Scandinavian language, Nordic, Norse, North Germanic, North Germanic language (the northern family of Germanic languages that are spoken in Scandinavia and Iceland)

Adjective

S: (adj) Nordic (of or relating to or constituting the Scandinavian group of languages) "Nordic languages have a gender system"
S: (adj) Nordic (relating to Germany and Scandinavia) "Hitler wanted Nordic people to rule Europe"
S: (adj) nordic (resembling peoples of Scandinavia)

DCIDoE copies the Wordnet definition including the Nazi Germany context Collaborative International Dictionary of English
1 definition found for Nordic From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

 Nordic \Nordic\ prop. adj.
    1. of or pertaining to the inhabitants of Scandinavia; as,
       Nordic languages have a gender system.
       [WordNet 1.5]
    2. Relating to Germany and Scandinavia; as, Hitler wanted
       Nordic people to rule Europe.
       [WordNet 1.5]
    3. Resembling the peoples of Scandinavia.
       [WordNet 1.5] noreaster

Oxford dictionary (which I added to provide an European dictionary for the topic about Europe) does not mention Germany or Germanic at all. Oxford dictionary
Nordic

 • adjective 1 relating to Scandinavia, Finland, and Iceland. 2 referring to a tall, blonde physical type associated with northern Europe.
 • noun a native of Scandinavia, Finland, or Iceland.
 — ORIGIN French nordique, from nord ‘north’.

Based on all these sources there are two references that could link to German. I.e. Germanic (but that does not include Germany), and Germany in the context of Nazi propaganda. As all other references seem to exclude Germany in full, I think the recent change was unwarranted and the references used incorrectly. Arnoutf 14:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I've tried explaining to you before, Nazi propaganda is in no way related to this. The phrase is simply an example. Furtheremore, claiming "incorrect use of references" is rather extreme. I was not searching for dictionaries that explicitly included definitions support for my additions, those are the standard dictionaries available to me from the command line via dict(1) and webster(1).

The only other non-Webster I have on hand is my "New Century Dictionary" by Meredith Publishing Company, 1963 which gives Nordic as:

 1a. Designating, or belonging to, a race of men or a racial type characterized by tall 
 stature, blond hair, blue eyes, and elongated head, exemplified by the Scandanavian and
 other Teutonic peoples: as, "The Nordic peoples came into Italy and Greece under 
 leader kings" (H. G. Wells's "Outline of History," xxxv(sic xxxiv) §1).

North Germanic refers to the language family, and is not directly related. It is interesting to note though, that this form of Nordic matches with a Scandinavia that excludes Finland.

There is no contradiction with the wiktionary, I simply didn't bother to fully update the wiktionary. The wiktionary in general gets far less attention from editors than wikipedia. --Belg4mit 16:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your conclusion is also a little misleading when you say "two for, all others against". You give five, one of which is a duplicate source I originally cited. That leaves four: Webster, WordNet, Oxford, Wiktionary. Both Webster and Wordnet agree with the inclusion of Germany/German people, as does New Century (see Teutonic). Proof by omission is hard enough to substantiate with an authoritative source like OED, but missing forms in the wiktionary should come as no surprise. --Belg4mit 17:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the word form to an adjective (Scandinavian or Germanic) this does not affect its usage as far I am concerned, but should make the meaning clearer. --Belg4mit 17:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fine; looks better. We have to be careful not to confuse German and Germanic as these words have (partially) different meanings. Arnoutf 17:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. They have meanings which are identical, and others that are not. Such are the joys of English. --Belg4mit 18:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]