Talk:Australian native police

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Requested Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Australian native police Mike Cline (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Native Police Corps → Native Police Force – The largest and longest lasting and most significant Native Police in Australian history was the one attached to Queensland (not the one in Victoria or New South Wales), and the official name - reflected in all parliamentary documents of note (see below) was the 'Native Police Force' - it was not named "Corps", nor was it named "Native Mounted Police Force" (as some seems to think)- it was simply the - "Native Police Force"relisted--Mike Cline (talk) 16:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)Relisted, I'm not clear on how it is best to close this. Probably the proposer should read our article titles policy and make some arguments that are more strongly backed up by that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC) -Helsned 13:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Title of some of the most important Parliamentary Report on this force - The Queensland 1861 Select Committee report together with the 1880 pamphlet 'The Way We Civilise' (see http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2280447?lookfor=title:(The%20way%20we%20civilise)%20{pi:nla.*%20AND%20-pi:nla.arc*}&offset=1&max=64395) is arguably two of the most significant historical documents we have giving evidence to the Native Police Forces in Australia, both use 'Native Police Force' throughout NEW SOUTH WALES LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY VOTES & PROCEEDINGS 1848-1859 "REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE NATIVE POLICE" NSW LA V&P 1857. QUEENSLAND LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY VOTES & PROCEEDINGS 1860-1900, A.O. "SELECT COMMITTEE REPORT ‘INTO THE EFFICIENCY AND MANAGEMENT AND GENERAL WORKING OF THE POLICE AND NATIVE POLICE FORCES’" Qld LA June 1860. "REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE NATIVE POLICE FORCE AND THE CONDITION OF THE ABORIGINES GENERALLY" - Qld LA 1861 p386pp,- see also http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/doview/nla.aus-vn529131-p The "Native Police Force" was also the most commonly used name in contemporary newspapers - make a search yourself on the NLA newspaper site http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y Helsned 13:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Admin comment - I refactored move request into proper format and location. --Mike Cline (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thank you 4 u'r assitanceHelsned 23:07, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Relisting comment - The name of this article was changed from Native Police to Native Police Corps shortly after its creation in 2007. This is clearly a WP:COMMONNAME issue, but complicated by the fact that the article is about a collective of native police forces independently formed with different names--Native Police Corps and Native Police Force. Other editors should weigh-in on this article title with WP:COMMONNAME in mind and the realization this article is about not one, but several different organizations. --Mike Cline (talk) 16:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There really were ever only two proper and government maintained Native Police forces in colonial Australia; one in Victoria and one in Queensland. Both were formed and financed by the government of New South Wales. The first predominantly known, it seems, as the 'Native Mounted Police'. It was formed in 1837 and was disbanded in 1853. It worked in the Port Phillip district of the embryo south-eastern colony of Victoria. The second were formed in 1848 and lasted to about 1897-1900, we cannot agree entirely here as they kept the troopers into the 20th century. It was working only in the north of the colony where it came to operate later as as a Queensland government financed force under the name of 'Native Police Force' (no 'Mounted'). The first was comparatively very small and lasted onmly a brief period, the latter lasted over 50 years. In one sense we should have stuck simply to 'Native Police'. I don't know who changed that. However - the real, by far the largest, the longest operating and best known - was the Queensland force. Helsned 12:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. The rationale above appears both POV (as some seems to think SIC) and OR, relying on primary documents. Refer to WP:AT please. Andrewa (talk) 20:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Queensland force, the only real force of note was not, is not and never has been, in any document, contemporary newspapers or history book, been named or described as a Corps. The term 'Mounted' has been occasionally used when naming the force in public and this is the only issue one might debate here - How is that for POV? You check for yourself, most sources are available on line. Helsned 02:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

So you said above. But the current scope of the article is not limited to this force. Please sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~, this will create links that I and others find useful. You appear to be a well-informed amateur or professional historian, but Wikipedia is not the place to publish or promote your views. Andrewa (talk) 09:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am not promoting any view of my own but a simple fact, and fact is that there have never been any force in colonial Australia by the name 'Native Police Corps'. One should either have kept the simple form 'Native Police', or, one should use the name of the only force of some historical importance, namely Walker's Native Police Force which eventually became the Queensland force.Helsned 12:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC) (and where did I not sign?)

Comment: I think this Google Scholar search: [1] and [2] suggest otherwise. --Mike Cline (talk) 13:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scholars later went on to call the force in Victoria a Corps. Some did a similar thing with the Queensland corps, they called that force the 'Native Mounted Police Force' although the word Mounted was not part of its official name. Still I could be wrong re the Victorian force, but the right thing to do would be to use only 'Native Police', that will be my compromise. I certainly do not think the only briefly existing Victorian force (both forces was created by NSW before the colonies Victoria and Queensland were formed)should be allowed to determine the heading of the article, so this will be my compromise suggestion.

You haven't signed anywhere in this discussion, User:Helsned, so take your pick of which edit. Please read Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages (which redirects to the behavioural guideline at Wikipedia:Signatures) and also the little box above the edit box which should read something like This is a talk page. Please respect the talk page guidelines, and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Andrewa (talk) 19:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But support the alternative, see below. Andrewa (talk) 19:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise Suggestion a change from 'Native Police Corps' to the more neutral title 'Native Police' or perhaps 'Australian Native Police'.

Support Australian native police as it is a descriptive title, not biased to anyone of the various native police organizations' official names. It is sufficiently unambigous by adding the Australian label as Native police was very ambiguous. With this title, the article can cover any and all of the native polices forces formed in Australia. --Mike Cline (talk) 06:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Australian native police. Good suggestion; Accurate description of the article scope. The only possible problem I can see is that perhaps aboriginal might be a more common term, and I did say perhaps, native police is IMO the more common phrase anyway in this context (interesting to see evidence), and aboriginal here would be ambiguous so it's not a possibility. Andrewa (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I Support 'Australian Native Police' and yes it has to be 'native' in this context, anything else would be misleadingHelsned 13:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Inaccurate introduction

The introduction to this article does imply that the corps engaged in activities not typical of a "police force", but should be much more concrete. For readers who have never heard of the police force, or are generally not very knowledgeable about Australian history, it is impossible to infer from the current introduction that some of the forces regularly engaged in murdering of aboriginal women and children. Since this is perhaps the main reason for the "notoriety" of the forces, it should be apparent from the introductory summary.Ornilnas (talk) 09:22, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Native police

Account should be taken of the research reported by the Australian Broadcasting Commission’s series Australian Wars in 2022. That series provides a well documented account of the mass murder of some 70000 First Australians at the hands of this Native Police force and their European supervisors. The entry needs urgent revision to reflect this research. Some comment on why indigenous Australians participated so fully in this genocide would also be useful Dr Frank Coulter 60.226.175.219 (talk) 00:07, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]