Talk:NCR Voyix/Archives/2015

Original Microsoft 8-bit FAT file system implementation on 8-inch floppies of NCR 7200/7500 in 1977/1978?

For the File Allocation Table article I am researching the early history of the FAT file system (before the introduction of FAT12 in 86-DOS in 1980, and in MS-DOS and PC DOS in 1981). It happens that Microsoft's Marc McDonald invented it in 1977 (some unreliable und unverified sources also claim 1976) as a file system for 8-inch floppy disks with 8-bit cluster entries. It was implemented in Microsoft's Standalone Disk BASIC-80 (for the Intel 8080 processor) for a number of computing platforms in ca. 1977/1978 (The 1977 year still needs verification from reliable sources), and ported to Standalone Disk BASIC-86 (for the Intel 8086) in 1978/1979. There also was an 8-bit implementation for Microsoft's MIDAS in 1979, but possibly with an on-disk format differing from that in Standalone Disk BASIC.

I am now trying to determine the original implementation, which is said to have been for an NCR machine with 8-inch floppy disk drives. It is unclear if this initial effort to implement the file system was exclusively done for this NCR model or was just the first adaptation of the Standalone Disk BASIC product. In the latter case, the NCR machine had to have an Intel 8080, but this is not known for sure. Sources differ significantly in regard to the actual NCR model and dates.

According to Stephen Manes and Paul Andrews, the original 8-bit FAT development was for the NCR 8200 in late 1977, according to them a floppy-based upgrade to the NCR 7200, which was cassette-based, but confusingly is mentioned in other sources as the target of the original FAT implementation. Adding to the confusion, Marc McDonald himself remembered a machine named NCR 8500 when asked in 2012. Other possible candidates could be the NCR 7500 or NCR 8250, I guess.

So, I would like to determine the exact NCR model, for which this was implemented, including the dates, and if the implementation was part of that machine's operating system or a stand-alone solution (with or without Microsoft's BASIC). I am therefore also interested in specifications (processors, RAM, drives) and release dates for the above mentioned NCR products. Ideally, I would even like to investigate the on-disk format used in order to find out if it was different in any way from that in Standalone Disk BASIC-80 (which I know) or not.

If someone can share anything in regard to this, please let me know via talk pages (or mail). Thanks. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 13:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Meanwhile, some of the potential options can be ruled out: The NCR Century 8200 series were 16-bit minicomputers. Flexible disks and fixed disks were available. The NCR Criterion 8400 and 8500 series were mainframes with flexible and fixed disks. Among other languages, NCR BASIC was available for them. However, since none of them was 8080-based, we can rule them out.

So, what I am looking for must have been one of the models of the NCR 7200 or 7500 series of data entry terminals. Both series are known to be based on the Intel 8080 8-bit processor. The NCR 7200 model I was announced in 1975-10 with a delivery date starting in 1975-11. The model I was designed to be used also as a stand-alone "key-to-cassette" data entry terminal. The NCR 7200 model IV came without cassette drive as it was hooked up to another computer. The NCR 7500 series was announced in 1978-06 and released in 1978-10 as a NCR 7510 cassette-based terminal, a NCR 7520 diskette-based terminal, and a NCR 7530 media conversion system (disk- and cassette-based). In 1979-03 a modell NCR 7510 Basic +6 was announced as well, followed by "Basic +6" for the other models in 1979-10, named "second generation" (of what?). "Basic +6" is known to be a variation of Microsoft BASIC-80 (some sources claim, version 3, others version 5 - I could not find sources in regard to the exact variant so far: Standalone Disk, Extended Disk, Disk, Extended, 8K).

While I could not find official information indicating that BASIC was also available for the NCR 7200 series, several internet sources claim that there was something named "Basic 6" or "BasicPlus 6" for the NCR 7200 as well. However, if the NCR 7200 was cassette-based only, any BASIC variant for this machine certainly had no use for a FAT file system.

All official information I could find so far state that the NCR 7200 series was cassette-based only. Nevertheless, I found one Australian (unreliable) source stating that he owned a NCR 7200 equipped with two floppy disk drives and Microsoft BASIC, originally imported by NCR Sydney into Australia. ([1])

So, NCR Basic +6 with 8-bit FAT support was introduced either for a still to be identified rare model variant of the NCR 7200 (possibly in 1977 or theoretically even in 1976?), or for the NCR 7520 and NCR 7530 (1978). Anyone?

--Matthiaspaul (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Yet another update: Computerworld 1977-01-17, "NCR Mini, Micro Among Debuts Made on NRMA Convention Floor" ([2]), talks about the introduction of a NCR 7200 model VI with NCR Basic Plus 6 (Extended BASIC) in Q1/1977. 24K memory (19K BASIC, 5K user), but still cassette-based. The report does not mention any floppy-drive option for this machine. But the date of this report indirectly supports that McDonald must have worked on adapting Microsoft's Extended BASIC-80 to the NCR 7200 in late 1976/early 1977. And since the NCR 7500 was introduced in 1978, it narrows down the development of Standalone Disk BASIC-80 with FAT support (for either the NCR 7500 series or another model variant of the NCR 7200 series) into the timeframe mid 1977 to late 1978. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:06, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Somewhat larger, the NCR 8100 series (NCR I-8130, I-8150) were 8080- or 8086-based, supported 8-inch disks, and BASIC as well in 1978. Perhaps, Manes meant the 8100 rather than the 8200 series? However, a different class of machine than the 7200 and 7500 series, definitely not direct successors. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 19:56, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

NCR's logo has just changed

I'm not real proficient in doing edits but for the record the logo and associated branding have now changed (to solid green). Someone more proficient than me may want ot change it.RedRiverGorge (talk) 22:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

http://www.ncr.com/images/site/affiliate/ncrLogo.gif (i don't know where to find a good quality one, but if anyone could help on this)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.214.112.216 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 21 January 2009

• I just uploaded the logo I found on the New York Stock Exchange's website (see File:NCR Corporation logo.gif, which is green and blue).
• Then I found this page. It seems that since 09 October 2013, they have made it "NCR Green".
• But it seems that it is still the same 1996 Saul Bass design, just with a new green background. If someone wants to replace the logo I just updated with the green logo, that's fine with me. Wbm1058 (talk) 15:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I see. The previous logo was File:NCR Corporation logo.svg (solid green), which will be deleted after Friday, 14 March 2014 if it is not restored. That file was uploaded 31 July 2010‎ by user:Beao. See user talk:Beao#Orphaned non-free image File:NCR Corporation logo.svg.

The solid green logo was replaced by this edit by User:SHuntsinger (contributions). Wbm1058 (talk) 17:29, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've put some time into researching this. We have a basic black logo of the Saul Bass design on commons, and nobody there has deleted it, so I think it's good with respect to any licensing issues. Over the years since Bass designed it, the logo colors have been tweaked. We have green and blue, then solid green, and now white on a green "brand block" (did they lift that one from H&R Block?), and who knows what other colors they have used. I don't know what color Bass made it, but we can avoid that issue by just using the black logo on commons. I think that the best logo caption is the interesting and informative note attributing it to Saul Bass. I know it is tempting for editors who are probably paid more than I am to put the slogan du jour in the caption parameter, but in my opinion that is not in the spirit of what the caption is for. See Template talk:Infobox company/Slogans for discussions about the deprecated company slogan parameter. Slogans like Experience a new world of interaction and Everyday Made Easier come and go, and don't really say anything; this is just advertising branding, and that's not what this encyclopedia is for. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I am a current employee for NCR and have responsibility for our Wikipedia page and correcting any inaccuracies. The Saul Bass logo is not our current logo...in fact we no longer have a "black" version. Rather only the icon within the design has been maintained. However the icon alone is not the official NCR logo. The text NCR, the icon and the green box is all part of the official NCR logo. We are requesting that the correct version be used as many folks come to this page to find our logo to use for their online purposes. ShuntsingerNCR (talk) 20:43, 31 July 2014 (UTC)ShuntsingerNCR

@ShuntsingerNCR: So the logo is only ever used in reverse coloration? I do see the logo in white-on-green at http://www.ncr.com/ but also in white-on-grey in the annual reports.

Should we just change the color scheme of the current file and create a new version, white-on-green? —C.Fred (talk) 20:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

We ask that you use our preferred logo: the NCR Brand Block. Here is what our brand guidelines say:

This is the default version of the NCR Brand Block. The relationship between the logo (side-by-side lock-up) and the green square is fixed so the size and position cannot be changed. The Logo can only appear white out and the Brand Block itself cannot be recreated or contain any other element other than the logo. Brand Block Flat/Mono – Where halftones cannot be reproduced, variants of the Brand Block in PMS 361 flat green and Mono (black and white) are available. These versions are suitable for some specialist reproduction methods, screen printing for example, which may require solid or color-separated artwork. The NCR Brand Block is The Preferred logo and should be used on any web or online application.

With regard to exceptions, those are approved by our brand team. How can I make the jpg available to you to post? Thanks. ShuntsingerNCR (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)ShuntsingerNCR

The logos that I've uploaded have come from the company's official website. It's not easy for me to find the pure logo. Most pages have the logo not in a block, but embedded in a green bar that runs the width of the page. Can you provide a link to the logo you want us to use that is on your website? Wbm1058 (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Found it in the press release here. Would you like to use that in Wikipedia? Wbm1058 (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I work for NCR and manage NCR.com. We use our logo as a "featured" thumbnail as a default when there is no featured image loaded. You can find it utilized in many instances starting here: http://www.ncr.com/news/news-releases. The direct link to the logo file: http://www.ncr.com/wp-content/themes/ncr-dotcom-wp-theme_STRIPPED/_assets/images/placeholder_ncr_logo.png. Can we utilize this in place of the existing (and old) logo, please? Pcullinn1 (talk) 20:04, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 Done Wbm1058 (talk) 19:31, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Kalpana

NCR are releasing a disruptive ATM platform called "Kalpana"; I shouldn't write about it since I'm on the project but may be an interesting addition to the page. http://response.ncr.com/NCR-Kalpana 82.43.151.202 (talk) 20:28, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Edinburgh

> "NCR's R&D activity is split between its three major centres in Atlanta USA (Retail), Dundee, Scotland (Financial Industry)"

Worth noting that there is also a major (100+) R&D facility in Edinburgh, dealing with financial services, which seems to be mostly comprised of old Digital Insight people. See http://ncredinburgh.com/ 86.175.139.215 (talk) 06:55, 2 December 2015 (UTC)