Talk:Mozarabs

Ritual language

The Mozarab Christians still practice their faith in Arabic and Spanish languages in many parts of Spain. New members need to prove that they are descendents of Christians who lived in parts of Spain when it was under Muslim rule. While most hymns are in Arabic, a certain amount of Hebrew is still present in their Christian service.

I doubt the part on languages. As I say in Talk:Mozarabic rite:

Are you sure that the rite has parts in Arabic? The usual tongues of Mozarabs and Muladis would be Mozarab languages. Arabic was a language of culture, but I doubt that they would hold mass in it. The linked Catholic Encyclopedia article has quotes in Latin and Greek but no Arabic.

I also doubt elements of Hebrew beyond some Hallelujah and Maran atha. The current mass book has Latin and Spanish. --Error 23:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Reverting some anonymous contentions

• There is no reason to suppose that Visigoth landlords remaining on their lands was "rare".
• Christians could not build new churches: no reason to obscure this.
• No "systematic elimination" of Christianity was undertaken. Strictures against Christians were tightened after the decade of the "martyrs of Cordoba" and not before.

The lower status of dhimmis is the historical fact, and the only way out for them was to convert to Islam. Furthemore, the marriage rules were clearly designed to produce more Muslims with each generation. This looks to me like a systematic policy to eliminate Christianity (or any other religions on this matter). The policies were tightened over time, and Cordoba martyrs may be unfairly blamed, but the policies were tightened even more during the Almoravid era when the Muslims were already in the majority.

• References to modern situations reveal the non-historical bias of an uninformed and anonymous editor.

Wetman 16:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

- could not build new churches without permission, strictly speaking, I think. sometimes given. Johnbod 14:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"This look to me like a systematic policy to eliminate Chistianity". What an amusing statement. A vivid example of systematic policy to eliminate religions is the Inquisition and persecution of Moriscos and Marranos. If Muslims have had a policy to eliminate Christianity, there would be left no Christian in Andalusia, as there was left no Muslim or Judaist in Christian Spain in less than a century after the fall of Granada.88.239.86.110 (talk) 02:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I believe this was the reason for resistance against Communist authorities in Poland by the previous pope. He simply started celebrating masses in open fields with provisional religious symbols (one may call him a fanatic, but a more balanced evaluation is in order). Communists considered Christianity to be a thing of the past. Muslims in Andalusia considered Christianity as a "defunct religion" which didn't need any new churches.

could do with section on Mozarab art

which I don't think is covered elsewhere Johnbod 02:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I think Mozarabic art deserves its own article. I could help with architecture, but I am not an expert in illuminated manuscripts. Mozarabic music could be an important section. --Garcilaso 12:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Mozarab brotherhood nowadays

Here [1], [2] there are references for the existence of the Mozarab brotherhood in Toledo. I remove the tag--Garcilaso 15:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

SOURCES!!

You need to fill out sources, you cant just write your opinions and treat it like facts.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Autosol (talk • contribs) 14:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is out of balance

It attributes all executions Córdoba martyrs to stirring up the population by two "fanatics". However, serious historians do not confirm any "parties" formed by "fanatics" and see Eulogius as a hagiographer rather than a leader (http://libro.uca.edu/martyrs/cm2.htm). The persecutions did not stop with decapitation of Eulogius but their record is more scarce. They lasted through 931 and Wolf concludes that there is no reason to assume that they stopped then.

I agree that some of the martyrs disliked Islamic policies designed to eliminate Christianity. Labeling them as "fanatics" or "leaders of a party" is emotional and undocumented. Even less credible is to label as fanatics those who were executed because they dared to convert to Christianity or refused to convert to Islam.

Examples from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba#Those_considered_martyrs_of_C.C3.B3rdoba

Aurea (for conversion to Christianity)

(also known as Aura) July 9, 856. Born in Cordoba in Spain and a daughter of Muslim parents, in her widowhood she quietly became a Christian and a nun at Cuteclara, where she remained for more than twenty years. She was discovered by Muslim relatives, brought before a judge, and renounced her Christianity under duress. However, she regretted this, and continued to practice Christianity in secret. When her family discovered this, she was again brought before a court, refused to repent a second time, and was executed.

Columba (for response to closing monastery)

September 17, 853. Born in Cordoba and a nun at Tábanos, she was detained with the rest of the nuns, to prevent them from giving themselves up to the courts, when the Emirate closed the monastery in 852. She escaped, openly denounced Muhammad and was beheaded.

Eulogius of Cordoba (for conversion to Christianity)

March 11, 859. A prominent priest in Cordoba Spain during this period. Outstanding for his courage and learning, he encouraged some of the voluntary martyrs and wrote The Memorial of the Saints for their benefit. He himself was executed for hiding and protecting a young girl St. Leocritia that had converted from Islam.

Flora and Maria (Flora executed for apostasy)

November 24, 851. These two women were both the offspring of marriages between a Christian and a Muslim. In addition, Maria was the sister of Walabonsus, who had been executed earlier. Flora's father, who died when she was very young, was a Muslim, and so her Christianity was legally defined as apostasy. Although Maria and Flora denounced Islam in court together, Maria was executed for blasphemy and Flora for apostasy.

George, Aurelius and Natalia, Felix and Liliosa (for apostasy)

   Further information: Aurelius and Natalia

July 27 c. 852. Martyrs in Cordoba under Emir Abd ar-Rahman II. Aurelius and Felix, with their wives, Natalia and Liliosa, were Spaniards whose family backgrounds, although religiously mixed, legally required them to profess Islam. After given four days to recant, they were condemned as apostates for revealing their previously secret Christian faith. The deacon George was a monk from Palestine who was arrested along with the two couples. Though offered a pardon as a foreigner, he chose to denounce Islam again and die with the others.

Laura (for apostasy)

October 19, 864. Born in Cordoba, as a widow she became a nun at Cuteclara. Condemned as an apostate, she was thrown into a cauldron of molten lead.

Leocritia (for apostasy)

(also known as Lucretia) March 15, 859. A young girl in Cordoba. Her parents were Muslims, but she was converted to Christianity by a relative. On Eulogius' advice and with his aid, Leocritia escaped her home and went into hiding. Once found, both were arrested. Eulogius, after years of being in and out of prison and encouraging voluntary martyrdom, was executed for proselytization, and Leocritia for apostasy.

....

Sancho (for refusing to embrace Islam)

(also known as Sanctius, Sancius) June 5, 851. Born in Albi in Septimania, he was taken to Cordoba in Spain as a prisoner of war, educated at the royal court, and enrolled in the guards of the Emir. He was executed by impalement for his refusal to embrace Islam, the very model of a soldier saint.

etc.

It takes really bad will to misrepresent suffering of these people for their convictions and to drumbeat the "tolerance" of their oppressors. This article doesn't meet the standards of basic fairness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.205.174 (talk) 01:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutral point of view regarding Jizya

I removed "heavy" from the text and changed Jizya into a wiki link. As there seems to be no specific source proving that Jizya was in this particular case a high tax, the reader should decide herself/himself (after further reading). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.64.65.135 (talk) 13:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Bad Language

I found this sentence in the culture and religion section. It could be worded better if someone can think of a way to rewrite it:

The Muslims also hedged their metaphysical bets through the use of Roman Catholic sacraments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.111.51.117 (talk) 00:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Renaming request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 00:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Mozarab → Mozarabs – Naming for groups of people: e.g., page name Jews, not Jew - Altenmann >t 20:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support per the exception at WP:PLURAL. —  AjaxSmack  02:33, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment

• zou are missing sources, references. The article seems written in the 19th century, i.e. the time when the mythos of the wonderful Al-Andalus was invented.* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.43.195.18 (talk) 08:16, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Mozrabs under ummayd

The mozarabs were treated completely differently in the Umayyad period from the Almohad and periods, and they must be separated as I wrote here

In the Umayyad era

Christians and Jews, were granted special treatment that enabled them to freedom of religion and belief, so that their cases had the right to settle them with the approval of the supreme ummayad authority. He used to allow their laws to be applied by their judges who were known as judges of the Christians or judges of ajams , and under the responsibility of the head of their sect, who bore the title "Al-Qumus." Their churches increased in all of Andalusia between the eighth and twelfth centuries, whether in large or small cities. Among the most famous of these churches in the days of the Caliphate, the Great Church in Cordoba The sites of the spread and settlement of Christians in Andalusia during the era, most of them were in Granada, Seville, Valencia, Al-Bireh, Badajoz, Tarquona and Malaga, as well as some of them settled in the valley. The most likely number was a lot. The Mestizos, who are the indigenous people of Spanish descent who converted to Islam or were born from a Arab or muslim father and grew up on the Islamic religion were the most dynamic and important elements in public life and in the economic activity of Andalusia. Livestock, agriculture in the countryside, and fishing, but in the cities they practiced different trades, and worked in trade, so they were the most active elements and most compatible with the conditions of life in the Andalusian countries.

A large number of Christians have reached a prominent social position. They were influential and distinguished, and they enjoyed, so that one of the Christian documents confirmed that his attachment to the Christians exceeded his attachment to his flock, and that he blessed them with gold and silver and made them palaces. Christian Christians participated in the exploitation of social facilities as they were allowed to draw water with the Muslims from one well, and due to the religious tolerance with them, Christians were allowed to go out with the Muslims in the rain prayer. in line with their customs and traditions in burying their dead. These graves are known as "the graves of the dhimmis." On the other hand, some texts prove the extremism they were subjected to on the part of some jurists, such as the demand to prevent Christianity from entering churches except on days of celebrations and holidays. Although the Christians wore clothes of their own, they wore Muslim uniforms, and although some jurists demanded that they stop doing so, they continued to wear them.

In the almohads era

. The Almohads rejected the prevailing Islamic belief that affirms the status of "dhimmis," a non-Muslim status in a Muslim country that allows him to practice his religion on condition of submitting to Islamic rule and paying the jizya tax.

The first Almohad leader, Abd al-Mumin, allowed an initial 7-month grace period. Then most of the urban dhimmi population of Morocco, both Jews and Christians, was forced to convert to Islam. And those who had converted to Islam had to wear identifiable clothing, as they were not considered loyal Muslims. Forced transfers under threat of violence accelerated in the twelfth century in North Africa and Andalusia, and Jews and Christians were suppressed and forced to choose between converting to Islam, exile, or murder. The Christians under their rule generally chose to move to Christian principalities in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, while the Jews decided to stay in order to preserve their property, and many of them pretended to convert to Islam, while continuing their religious practices in secrecy. The treatment of Christians under the Almohads has changed drastically. Many Christians were killed, forced to convert to Islam or forced to flee. Some Christians fled to the Christian kingdoms in the north and west and helped fuel the restoration. Idris al-Ma'mun, a monotheist caliph who ruled from 1229-1232 and in parts of Morocco, abandoned much of the Almohad belief, including defining Ibn Tumart as the Mahdi, and denying him the status of the dhimmi. Jews were allowed to practice their religion openly in Marrakesh, and even the Christian church was permitted to operate there as part of his alliance with Castile.

1. M.J. Viguera, "Almohads". In Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World, Executive Editor Norman A. Stillman. First published online: 2010 First print edition: ISBN 978900417678, 2114 2. ^ Amira K. Bennison and María Ángeles Gallego. "Jewish Trading in Fes On The Eve of the Almohad Conquest." MEAH, sección Hebreo 56 (2007), 33-51 3. ↑ Maribel Fierro (2010). "The Almohads land the Hafsidsl". In Maribel Fierro (). The New Cambridge History of Islam. Volume 2, The Western Islamic World, Eleventh to Eighteenth Centuries. Cambridge University Press 4. Lévi- Provençal, Histoire de L’Espagne Historicalxz (talk) 05:17, 17 March 2021 (UTC)