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Siddur

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Siddur Vilna? Is there a source? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The siddur itself gives no clues whatsoever concerning who wrote it. I confirmed this with an NKnik myself. It is also NK's main siddur (nusach haGra). I know that this might qualify as OR (though you must note that it wasn't me who added the information to this article, so there are already two people who know/confirm this information). --Daniel575 19:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bias

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How did the words 'rhetoric' get put into this article. It's a biased word, espescially considering Moshe Hirschs speach is usually more reserved than what is commonly called rhetoric. ALso, the quote at the bottom that Moshe Hirsch has departed from Amram Blau's teachings is opinion based on little and biased. Amram BLau was among those who signed a letter to the UN asking that Jerusalem be apportioned to Jordan during the division of the mandate, so its not true that Amram Blau never would have alligned with the State of Israel's enemies. Further, Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld met with the Kings of Jordon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia to discuss the "evils" of Zionism and the possibility of the Old YIshuv being protected by them if placed under their rule as opposed to Zionist control. The line alledging a grave departure by R' Hirsch from the act of previous NK and anti-zionist leaders should be removed mainly for innacuracy and bias.

I have also heard SIddur Vilna is Moshe Hirsh's siddur from NK people. I have a friend (not a friend of a friend) who said to R Hirsch, "I daven from your Siddur," and showed him his Siddur Vilna. R' HIrsch did not deny it was his, he only smiled and carried on the rest of the conversation.

I'm not sure why it has to be that every article about anti-Zionist Jews has to be altered to reflect negatively on them. Can't articles be left unbiased and simply informative so that readers can form their own opinions. Propaganda keaps slipping in.

There's even a quoted letter in the NK article which is an alleged denunciation by Satmer and VIshnitz of NK. Anyone who knows anything about the Jewish world knows Satmer does not put its name on anything that is signed by Zionists even if they agree with it. The likelihood of Satmer signing something also signed by Young Israel, and Anshei Sfard is zero, and is the clue that its a propagandists forgery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.152.205.196 (talk • contribs)

Hi, I completely agree with everything you write. Others unfortunately don't. I met Rav Hirsch myself several times also. I don't know what to do about this. The power of the Zionists here is very strong, and difficult to counter. I'll write some on your talk page also. --Daniel575 23:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I ereased the part about RavShach supporting and the unspecified discomfort in Nk methods. THe article is about Moshe Hirsh, not NK. That's another article.
WP:RS requires a source for the Vilna Siddur claim. We cannot report anecdotal hearsay. - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just asked a few people at NK in Meah Shearim and each confirmed that it was written by his son. --Daniel575 | (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article evidently needs protected because somebody keeps ereasing valuable biographical information and putin gin slams against Neturei Karta. I edited it back to the first paragraph, but there is missing info now. 88.155.221.14 14:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The one slamming Neturei Karta was R' Yoel. The "valuable" information which was deleted was the quote allegedly made by Rav Shach which was taken out of context. Without one neutralizing the other, there is nothing to add to an otherwise non-notable individual. DavidCharlesII 16:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody said you slammed Neturei Karta, only that a slam was put in which said nothing towards Moshe Hirsch's biography. If the "quote" belongs anywhere, it's not in this article as it is presently written. It did not mention Moshe Hirsch.
The quote from Rav Shakh and the "quote" from the Rebbe Reb Yoilish of Satmar both seemed to have to do with Neturei Karta not Moshe Hirsch who the article is about. The Rav Shakh comment was a good thing to deleat. It had no point in the article, because it didn't say anything about Moshe Hirsch.
The slamming from the Satmar Rov was doctored before it was posted. Do you read Yiddish? The "..." in the quote is the deleted excerpt that goes on to explain who the "Ones who dress in the clothes of Neturei Karta" are. A big piece of information to "..." out, since it turns out he's not speaking of Neturei Karta at all. In any case, it also says nothing about Moshe Hirsch. (BTW, How can an "alleged" quote be taken out of context? Alleged means unverified, and therefore, without context.)
The "valuable" information was that Moshe Hirsch was close to Aaron Kotler, and Aaron Kotler's response to him.
If you feel that Moshe Hirsch is not a noteworthy individual, you might find another article to contribute valuable things to. 88.154.86.143 00:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot accept that R' Aharon was close to someone who would visit a murderer of innocent Jews. Believe me, I am as charedi as he is, and learned in far more charedi Yeshiva, but encouraging a murderer of Yiddin is way beyond the pale. 66.93.254.200 16:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your opinion on the subject. Nevertheless, the quote from Aharon Kotler was sourced, therefore it belongs in the article. 88.152.0.3 23:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just had the intense pleasure of speaking personally with Rabbi Hirsch in his home last night. It was his son who wrote siddur Vilna. Also, he did learn with Aaron Kotler. Shia1 06:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's wonderful. It's called WP:OR - crz crztalk 13:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My edit

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Mea culpa. For some reason, I missed the word "Rabbi" at the start of the sentence. CJCurrie 23:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hehe, ok. Gives us something to laugh about. --Daniel575 | (talk) 00:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3rd opinion

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I asked an uninvolved editor to give a 3rd opinion. - crz crztalk 04:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • removed all the unsourced or nrs pov just added. the implication that he supports the murder of jews is a blatant lie. (many of the terrorists groups don't even support the murder of jews per se, & this is not nit picking).
  • the 50k 'donation' 1) please provide reasonable sources (daniel pipes, arutz sheva?, ok i grant you they look kinda rs compared to 'israeli' military inteligence but come on...) 2) at least mention that the authenticity of the original documents & this interpretation of them are both disputed (its called WP:NPOV).
  • also can we please not edit war about stub templates of all things? cr is arguably wrong about nn in terms of judaism, but who cares? how many editors on proj. judaism are going to make useful contributions to this article anyway?  ⇒ bsnowball  10:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Few. I still want to see substantiation of the old long-deleted claim that he authored the Siddur Vilna. If it's ever confirmed, I'd have to mount a campaign to get all the copies thereof removed from my local orthodox shul. - crz crztalk 14:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's one of the best siddurs in the world, with one of the clearest commentaries based mostly on Mishnah Berurah. Are you going to get rid of the Hirsh siddur written by SImpson Raphael Hirsch because it has anti-zionist material? Anyways, it was written by his son, not him. I asked. I don't have anything in writing, but if you really hate them so much you don't like an outstanding work of scholarship just because its theirs, please, make your shull less for it. Shia1 23:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

bio-stubs

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I think that whatever stub is relvant should be left on: Israel, Palestine, Judaism. CRZ, I don't understand the axe your grinding. Whether you like it or not, this Hirsch is a Jew, dresses like a Jew, and most noted for being a Jew who likes Arabs more than Israelis. --Shuki 21:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No axe. I don't think he's prominent "as a rabbi", "as a posek", "as a whatever". He is a politician. Just like Rabbi Eli Yishai. But if you restore it, I won't revert. - crz crztalk 22:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rabbi Eli Yishai is also notable in connection with Judaism. I don't understand your intentions here. And Hirsch is not at all a politician. He is a leader and a talmid chochom within his faction of NK (beis midrash Ohel Sarah) which has several tens of families and a yeshiva.
I guess according to you, if the article on Rav Eliashiv was also a stub, you would be removing the judaism-bio-stub there also? --Chussid 09:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They dress in very poor clothing, live in something which makes you think you stepped back in time 150 years. They did not misuse that $50,000. The enemy portrays it as if he is a corrupt person who used this money to get rich. That is slander. The money was distributed amongst all families of his NK faction, and perhaps they could use it to buy enough food for a few months. --Chussid 09:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Araft also lived a spartan existence; he was still a billionare. The "enemy" is the whole of klal yisroel--anti-zionist, just like you and me. The fact is that all of klal yisroel finds Mr. Hirsch to be a rasha and beyond the pale. That he accepted blood stained money from such an evil murderer is enough proof for anyone but yourself. Do teshuva.

My favorite quote about this matter comes from the local NK leader in Ramat Beit Shemsh. "To see how an army with 10,000 computers with printers and a large Hasborah (propaganda) division could come up with incrimating paper evidence is not hard to see. To see why Rav Hirsh would recieve so much money and still live in a one bedroom apartment with his children and grandchildren is." Nice quote. Shia1 23:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC) I was wondering why this is an Israeli bio-stub. Rabbi Hirsch does not possess Israeli citizenship. Shia1 00:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quick Reminder

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Hi. Just wanted to drop a quick reminder that if negative information or information that can be viewed negatively is brought up, it needs to be very very more than very well sourced in a biography on a living person. If it is not, people can be banned for adding it. This includes on talk pages. I deleted a sentance that might be true, but needs to be better sourced than it was. Thanks. Basejumper 21:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, please don't revert the present version without a better source. We must be careful with living people. A source for something negative needs to be from a mainstream, widely accepted news source. A newspaper, magazine or newscast is acceptable. Just a website is not. Remember, on wikipedia, it doesn't matter if something is true; it matters if something can be verified. For living people we are only permited to use top notch sources.

Here is the policy, "Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, including as an external link, unless written or published by the subject of the article." If somebody wants to put in the money taking accusation, it is fine and very good; however it has to come from a mainstream newspaper or the like. It cannot come from a website, or a niche paper that one would expect to be against the subject of the article.

Look. I don't want to be involved in this article, I found it from Heradi Rabbis while puting a tag on the Noah Weinbergh article. Just find a reliable source that says the same thing and leave it at that, but wikipedia rules are there for a reason. With living people it is a very real legal reason. Basejumper 15:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rabbi Meir Kahane did not attend Lakewood yeshiva and him and Moshe Hirsch and Shlomo Carlebach were never roommates. This should be taken out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shlomo2000 (talk • contribs) 00:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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